14-11-2002 10:10									#1
	The Other Teams: An Assessment Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

THE OTHER TEAMS: AN ASSESSMENT

Legoland

They are a team explicitly created to play as a builder civ. While I believe that ALL teams will have a penchant for war under various circumstances, their's is the weakest - and by far. They will want to build more defensive military prowess than offensive military prowess and will take a military strategy of building an insurmountable defense along with their improvements+wonders as while the rest of the teams run around spreading out their forces and losing units in attempts to conquest others.

In the long-run, this strategy could win out if the builders are not a very early target of another team that FORCES THEM to build less improvements than they would like.

In terms of their view of us, we are THE ONLY TEAM not have explicitly threatened them with destruction in their thread or other threads on the public boards. We have also had more than one of us post on their boards to express sympathy (even empathy) for their gamestyle and the survival of their team. If they ever get cornered or even threatened, we should hope they remember that (which, given that they KNOW they can't trust anyone else, they very well might).

Glory of War

The explicitly created to fight wars because wars are fun. While they will certainly be discussing strategy and doing so from rationally self-interested perspective, it remains the case that they still have an irrational attachment to war as a choice for how to advance themselves. This CAN be exploited in a number of ways.

They HAVE NOT stated a specific target, which is wise of them. They have simply stated that they will conquer EVERYONE. This gives everyone clarity in that, in the long-run, they cannot be trusted. But it also means that no-one will specifically feel that THEY are the next target.

In terms of us, then, the warmongers' attachment to war but non-attachment to a target can be exploited if we have mutual interest with the warmongers or even if our interests can be served at the same time as offering a war for the warmongers to fight (and offers them an incentive for the war not to be against us).

Gathering Storm

While more enigmatic than Legoland or the Glory of War, the Gathering Storm could be fairly described as "Glory of War - Light". They have a specific vendetta against Team Lux Invicta that could potentially be exploited, but I'd rather that we sided with Lux Invicta than Gathering Storm (if possible). Gathering Storm is more dangerous than Glory of War precisely because they're a lighter variation on the same theme. While Glory of War is irrationally fixated on war as a means to victory, it seems clear that Gathering Storm is more open-minded. Furthermore, because Gathering Storm has established a specific target, they have the benefit of other teams (including us...) loosening their guard a bit against them.

Aside from the fact that we should NEVER loosen our guard against this team, they are particularly dangerous and with their upcoming civ choices and strategic work, could prove far more effective than Glory of War at Glory of War's own game. This is mostly because where all of the other teams seem united in shunning Glory of War, only Team Lux Invicta has reason to shun Gathering Storm...

We should not fall for this. They need to not only be watched by contained... a "Policy of Containment" would be ideal against them

Lux Invicta

I would honestly say that this group is more enigmatic than even our own team. While they have stated that they will achieve victory in the end and are quite proud of themselves, they HAVE NOT, as yet, shown any clear external signs of leaning toward any specific method (building, wars, etc.) as their means toward supremacy and victory. While Trip is the team leader (for now), the team was explicitly formed with a variety of play styles on it. This makes them much like ourselves in that they are likely keeping all options open and will follow the option which the balance of opinion within their team supports case-by-case and which seems to be in their interests at the time.

This, in my opinion makes Lux Invicta the most dangerous long-term opponent. However, it also makes Lux Invicta the easiest of the other teams for us to approach eye-to-eye. If there is a way to convince Lux Invicta that our interests are inter-twined with theirs and to pursue complementary courses of action with regards to thwarting threats by Gathering Storm and the Glory of War (in particular), that could be AN EXTREMELY VALUABLE PARTNERSHIP.

Another issue is that the apparent vendetta against this team by Gathering Storm (AKA "Trash Trip's Ass") could be exploited to bring Team Lux Invcita into cooperating with us (to buffer themselves against the threat of Gathering Storm). With both Gathering Storm and the Glory of War looking for a target, an alliance of Lux Invicta, Role-Play Team, and Legoland could prove valuable... all (out of self-interest) don't want to see one of the others fall to one of the two war-monger teams... as such an event would only make the warmongers more powerful.

That said, they are (I believe) the most dangerous opponent and we must be sure to sue the builders (if possible) as our hedge against them. We must also attempt to watch them closely for signs of betraying us should any arrangement with them actually work out.

------------------------------------

As such...

META-TEAM GOALS

1. Keep Gathering Storm and Glory of War Isolated From Each Other

I can't possibly over-emphasize how important this goal is to the geopolitical makeup of the game. An alliance or even a casual partnership between Gathering Storm and the Glory of War would be a disaster and could end up swallowing an entire team (any of the other three of us) pretty quickly without help from the others. If that unforunate event takes place, we would have to use every means at our disposal to drive a wedge between these two victors and hope they follow the old rule that "now alliance survives victory"

Ideally, however, we will be able to drive a wedge between them early on. I don't care if its subterfuge (lying to them - "hey, those guys are out to get you") or anything else it takes. This is priority #1. An alliance between Glory of War and Lux Invicta would be bad, but ultimately Lux Invicta knows that they can't trust Glory of War and will try to dump them - this is easier to drive a wedge in between. The true danger is an alliance between Gathering Storm and Glory of War.

I think the key item of weakness in their potential relationship that can be exploited and MUST be exploited early is the following:

Gathering Storm currently has the luxury of Glory of War being "the big bad guys" that everyone is really worried about. Gathering Storm probably is chuckling to themselves that THEY are the real threat and they could ride along on a sentiment to take out Glory of War and then stab someone in the back.

This is precisely what we can exploit, but it will have to be done early. We must convince the Gathering Storm team that we think we can work with THEM, but that we agree with everyone else that the Glory of War team is likely irreconcilable. While they're cackling to themselves about how this keeps them from being the isolated team (and there IS a risk in that!), it will also hopefully keep them from going to Glory of War to create an alliance.

We can always sign a Secret Defensive Alliance with Team Lux Invicta that says that if Gathering Storm attacks either of us, the other will attack Gathering Storm (and the other way around if Lux Invicta turns out to be more warlike than I suspect). In this manner, we can keep Gathering Storm and Glory of War apart and exploit the animosity between Gathering Storm and Lux Invicta to keep ourselves from being mortally stabbed in the back.

2. A Long-Term Partnership with Legoland

They're the only ones who can really be trusted in the long run (especially if we prove ourselves trustworthy to them) and the meet the minimum requirement of being "able to live with the other teams". If such a partnership builds, they have a powerful incentive to keep us around and strong as an augmentation to their own protection. We have reason to keep them around as long as there are warmonger threats to us over the horizon we'd rather not see gobble them up.

As with all alliances, however, they never survive victory. If, by some fantastic luck and planning, the only dominant human civs left are the builders and ourselves, then let the scheming against the builders begin Otherwise, we should remain united with them in attempting to create a STABLE joint hegemony that seeks to prevent any warmongering power from becoming dominant or threatening to either of us.

3. Partnership with Lux Invicta over Gathering Storm

Assuming that Lux Invicta survives, in the long run an alliance with both Lux Invicta and Gathering Storm in it is likely untennable. Ultimately, it would be in our interests to keep them opposed to one another (keep in mind that it's always POSSIBLE that Lux Invicta and Gathering Storm will ally TOGETHER just for the effect, with the idea of taking each other on once they're the only 2 powerful civs left), but to make sure that one of them doesn't take the other one over and become too powerful.

Ultimately, however, we want to establish either sole hegemony, or (more likely) joint hegemony in partnership with Legoland. If one of Gathering Storm or Lux Invicta has to go, I wholly recommend Gathering Storm, as Lux Invicta I believe has the right mix of members and strategies to more able to fit in with a stable and peaceful long-term framework where we either have sole or joint hegemony.

	14-11-2002 17:42									#2
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It's fine with me to ally with anyone exceplt Glory. Especially when MPPs become possible, Glory will drag us into war after war after war. Which is not good.
Legoland=They have the least chance of surviving, but if they can by some chance then they will be our strongest ally.
Glory of War=Sorry, no alliance for reason above.
Gathering Storm=Well, I'd rather ally with Lux Invicta.
Lux Invicta=What Arnelos said. Good players.

	14-11-2002 22:14									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Smashing. I agree entirely.

I'm really starting to like this roleplaying thing too. By the end of the game, we can have an Treaty Organization to contain the war-like communist threat of the GoW. This is what PtW was meant to be.

	15-11-2002 00:32									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I basically agree with you Arnelos.

But I think we should wait until the game will be a bit advanced to verify your analysis. The geographical reality will probably change some of those early strategic thoughts.

	15-11-2002 01:43									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is a great analysis. But while I agree that a MPP with the warmongering teams should be avoided by all means, we may have to collaborate with them for trading purpose... only to take the time to build a nice army, and stab them in the back to steal their critical resources
In fact, the Legoland team has a huge advantage : everyone think that you can trust them. So even the Glory of War team may want to collaborate with Legoland to use them as a tech provider.

	15-11-2002 01:45									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

This assessment is excellent.

I do feel that there is a lot we can do and should do prior to this game's start. Of course, once we find out who our neighbors are our diplomacy and foriegn policy will change, but we need to keep several things in mind before the game gets going.

1) We need to appear to not be a threat. We should continue to promote our image as the "fun loving roleplay team" that's more interested in our characters and society than world conquest. We should never seriously discuss conquest and should focus more on the neat "roleplay" things we're doing as a society when talking about our civ in public.

2) We should appear to be a possible friend to ALL nations. Every one of the other teams, Warmongers included, should feel that they could approach us and work together with us. We want them, as a part of their schemes to think, "Hey, if we make up some lame excuse I'm sure those Roleplay guys will be on our side."

3) We should cultivate friendships and relationships with people on other teams, and spread an attitude to our friends on the other side that we're looking forward to meeting them and trading with them and fighting along side them, etc.

--Togas

	15-11-2002 03:47									#7
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Togas 1) We need to appear to not be a threat. We should continue to promote our image as the "fun loving roleplay team" that's more interested in our characters and society than world conquest. --Togas

ALL members of the team must come to be involved with diplomacy to the foreign masses! Every citizen must be involved in the war effort! Every!

	15-11-2002 03:59									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I FULLY agree with Togas' suggestions for how we should conduct ourselves in public regarding our team.

	15-11-2002 06:32									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I only have one comment


i disagree that we should trust Lux Invicta over Gathering Storm.


While it is true that Gathering Storm has admitted they want to whipe the floor with atleast one team... Lux Invicta has barely said anything.

Lux Invicta may very well be just as much warmongerers as any team in the end, and because they are the most enigmatic team outside of us... we must be wary of them.

Gathering Storm might be a team we can harbor. If we can aid them somehow to reach their goals, we can gain from that. And knowing PRECISELY one of their goals, this can be easy.

But when it comes down to it, I think we should be be just as wary of both of the teams. While my opinion is that Gathering Storm would be the better partner, either team might serve us well.


But be careful with what you dont know. At this current time... which team do we know less about?

	15-11-2002 17:20									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

I also agree with Togas suggestion on our conduct. Could not we use the Gazette for a campaign of massive disinformation ?

As far as trust is concerned, I strongly believe that nobody can be trusted; and I would not rely more on Lux Invicta than on Gathering Storm.

Incidentally Gathering Storm has received the reinforcement of Theseus, and I think that this team must really now be considered as a cold blooded winning machine. On the other hand, it is also the most predictable.

	15-11-2002 19:19									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT Incidentally Gathering Storm has received the reinforcement of Theseus, and I think that this team must really now be considered as a cold blooded winning machine. On the other hand, it is also the most predictable.

yeah, I would say they lost the original intent of our grand experiment somewhere along the way when they decided to go recruiting infamous strategists and the like. However, I don't see how it will help them much. Those infamous strategies always seemed like common sense anyway against an opponent as rigid as our good friend, the AI.

I think their ability to communicate openly will be hampered by the inclusion of members that will, possibly inadvertently, dominate discussion due to the pedestal other people put them on. And I think that is a disadvantage that we can exploit.

	15-11-2002 20:09									#12
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Indeed, but I also think the same can be said for many of the other teams

those teams that have supposedly "GREAT" Players, IE the Ubers, the Trips, the Arryans... whatever... those types of players will largely steal the attention from others on their team.

But I restate my sentiment that we shouldnt put excesive faith into the warmongering teams. And by these teams, i mean EVERY team except the builders and us.

	15-11-2002 22:39									#13
	Tired of ads?

Hey, all these secrets...
I say, hide them safe. Traitors might be running in the night.
We cannot be too careful.

	15-11-2002 22:51									#14
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser I think their ability to communicate openly will be hampered by the inclusion of members that will, possibly inadvertently, dominate discussion due to the pedestal other people put them on. And I think that is a disadvantage that we can exploit.

I absolutely agree.

This is a Civ game against humans, not AI.

Certainly we need to have an extensive knowledge of all the tricks and tactics that have been discovered and mastered by the "great civ players" of yore. They will help us stay competative and also help us recognize what our enemies are doing.

However, the real test is going to be playing with and against other people. What will win this game is not a supurb knowledge of military tactics or city management cheats, it will be the team that best plays the other teams against each other. The team that takes fully diplomatic advantage of the other teams. The team that gains the most with the least effort and expense.

Certainly having such "famous" people on their team will give them a fear edge against unsophisticated opponents, but who amongst us really feels that these people are that much better than us? Furthermore, by having no such "famous" people on our team, it allows all of our good ideas to be heard equally.

Of course, I would talk up the fear angle a bit with the other teams .... "Did you hear that X team just got Y player?! Wow, those guys are going to be tough and ruthless. We certainly can't trust them. They're probably going to use an early game rush tactic. We'd better stick together so that we don't get killed by those guys."

--Togas

	15-11-2002 23:41									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well togas... That reminds me of the traditional strategy boardgames.
(Shogun, Risk, etc.)
Where the open discussion between players inevitably kicks the strongest one down.

If we avoid treason and avoid getting backstabbed, we might win.
If they figure out our profile, we might lose.

Perhaps if we pretend like being nice harmless guys, we can backstab them individually until we emerge victouriously.

	15-11-2002 23:45									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

Our secret motto should be:

"The consummation of forming an army is to arrive at formlessness. When you have no form, spies cannot find anything out and the enemy cannot produce a strategy."
- Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Where 'army' refer to this group. See?

	16-11-2002 01:10									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ninot I only have one comment i disagree that we should trust Lux Invicta over Gathering Storm. While it is true that Gathering Storm has admitted they want to whipe the floor with atleast one team... Lux Invicta has barely said anything. Lux Invicta may very well be just as much warmongerers as any team in the end, and because they are the most enigmatic team outside of us... we must be wary of them. Gathering Storm might be a team we can harbor. If we can aid them somehow to reach their goals, we can gain from that. And knowing PRECISELY one of their goals, this can be easy. But when it comes down to it, I think we should be be just as wary of both of the teams. While my opinion is that Gathering Storm would be the better partner, either team might serve us well. But be careful with what you dont know. At this current time... which team do we know less about?

Ninot,

I DID SAY that I believed that Lux Invicta was the most dangerous of all of the other teams. So I agree with you on that issue, but I think we can still work with them if a mutual interest can be found (but we can only trust them so far as a mutual interest exists... beyond that, they are the most dangerous team out there).

	16-11-2002 01:17									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ThePlagueRat Our secret motto should be: "The consummation of forming an army is to arrive at formlessness. When you have no form, spies cannot find anything out and the enemy cannot produce a strategy." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War Where 'army' refer to this group. See?

Reminds me of the boardgame Diplomacy.

I learned all the best leasons I ever learned about diplomatic deception and trickery by playing that game with some of its masters in the Origins Diplomacy Tournaments... (Origins is the annual International gamers' convention which has typically been held in Philadelphia or Columbus in the U.S.).

Anyone else ever play much Diplomacy? If not, I heavily recommend you invest in doing so... you'll learn more about Togas' point here than with any other game... the game pieces and their relation to each other are only a minor element of the REAL GAME, which is the effort to convince other people to do what's good for you and (ultimately) bad for them

	16-11-2002 01:25									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Interesting quote from the public forums (it only confirms what we were thinking) :

quote: 'We consider ourselves to be a warlike team as well'

Sir Ralph (Gathering storm), replying to Donegeal (Glory of war)

	16-11-2002 01:32									#20
	Tired of ads?

One of my favorite board games.

What was the Sun Tzu quote for the SMAC wonder that prevented probes? Something very similar. If this was a SMAC multiplayer game, I would definietly use that. Nice sidetrack, eh?

	16-11-2002 03:46									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, i still think making a deal with Trip's team a bad idea

	16-11-2002 14:52									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ninot Well, i still think making a deal with Trip's team a bad idea

So, in other words, making a deal with Lux Invicta is like making a deal with Lucifer... Yeah, that's probably fair.

	18-11-2002 10:44									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: What was the Sun Tzu quote for the SMAC wonder that prevented probes? Something very similar. If this was a SMAC multiplayer game, I would definietly use that. Nice sidetrack, eh?

I used to have it as my sig; it was 'If I can determine the enemy's disposition of forces while I have no perceptible form, I can conentrate my forces while the enemy is fragmented. The pinnacle of military deployment approaches the formless; if it is formless, then even the deepest spy cannot discern it, nor the wise make plans against it.'

	18-11-2002 10:48									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

There are TONS of good Sun Szu quotations... barring anything else, just go read his whole book

	18-11-2002 21:06									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

It's a nice book.
IMO the doctrine of formlessness could apply to our foreign affairs...

	19-11-2002 05:02									#26
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I will try to find it (the Sun Tzu book)

...checks gutenberg project...

	19-11-2002 05:06									#27
	Remove this text

One thing to keep in mind is not to over-obsess about one line or piece of advice in The Art of War and apply it to other areas where Sun Szu has differing advice.

For instance, keeping one's formations formless sounds all well and good and is advisable for counteracting the intelligence efforts of one's opponents, but is not always a good idea for every aspect of diplomatic relations - something Sun Szu covers in other areas of his work (and other wise writers through history have said as well).

	21-11-2002 10:31									#28
	Suffering from ads?

*bump*

(for MrWhereItsAt)

	22-11-2002 03:53									#29
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Hmm, you are probably right about our friend Sun Tzu, señor.

Well, listen! I gotta bit of advice for the foreign policies,
stuff that I have figured out by reading in our forum lately.
Basically, it uses a divide and conquer approach:
There are different approaches to different situations.

1.With ambassadors as friendly spokesmen to other civs,
we can make use of the MAASK-technique.(tm)
(Ministers And Ambassadors Speaks Kindly)
Normally, it's the official job of an ambassador to make a friendly approach.
This can prevent a crisis in certain cases,
and give us opportunities of trade and pacts.
The MAASK-technique makes our appeareance polite,
but formless anyhow.

2. Foreign political discussions done within our board here would
be the essential plotting needed to achieve victory.
Our leader or ministers activates the plots when neccessary.
Here we divide the tasks upon the other civs:
e.g. send friendly ambassador, or hassle to aggression,
or just trick'em with the pokerface maask?

3.Finally, decision on whom to conquer at a certain stage.
If the previous steps had been done properly, this works out pretty well too. To "conquer" in this context could also mean to
deadlock another civ so they have to give up something...
Pacts, backstabbers, conspiracy, and mil. strenghts play an important role here.
(Further... how to do them in: This is another discussion that takes ingame issues,implementation, tactics, etc.)

Last edited by ThePlagueRat on 22-11-2002 at 04:08

	28-10-2004 18:45									#30
	Re: The Other Teams: An Assessment Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Arnelos THE OTHER TEAMS: AN ASSESSMENT 2. A Long-Term Partnership with Legoland They're the only ones who can really be trusted in the long run (especially if we prove ourselves trustworthy to them) and the meet the minimum requirement of being "able to live with the other teams".

:rotfl: Oh how wrong we were.

Sorry guys, just got into some nostalgia (see my sig )