14-11-2002 23:48									#1
	Play the World in WAR and PEACE Support Apolyton

PTW lands us in a decidedly more dangerous world because the AI is a pushover in war and people aren’t. So multiplayers…who’s winning? Are you Warmongers rushing your way to wins over Builders? Does map tiny vs. huge change the equation markedly? Any Napoleons or dominant civs emerging? Perhaps you LAN or Hotseaters have some feedback for those of us who LAG behind.

	15-11-2002 09:19									#2
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I don't think that anyone could be a builder and stand a chance.


But most games probably do not last long enough for someone to get into a serious builder mode.

	15-11-2002 22:42									#3
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I don't understand how anyone can have fun being a builder at all. You sit and build for 200 turns, and when you have made your army out of 500 tanks you attack the AI and theyr 6 spearman army falls in 1 turn

	15-11-2002 23:44									#4
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That sounds like fun to me. Beats the crap out them nuking my capitol. I can not recall running up on an AI with 6 spears for an army while I had tanks, no matter how big of a lead I have had.

	16-11-2002 06:30									#5
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That depends of your personal definition of a builder. For my part, a good hybrid builder, which makes a few good wars ( like 2-3 medieval, 1-2 mid-industrial before tanks, and a few but good tank wars in late game ), with peacetime inbetween, should have no problem to win at Regent wiht experience, and have a decent challenge at Monarch. The first medieval war is the most important . However, Civ III remains a war game and only the early despotic warmonger in Ancient era can hope to win at Emperor & Diety, unplayable for hybrid builders like me. And the challenge is a bit upgraded in PtW.

	16-11-2002 07:08									#6
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sigh its an age old confusion of warmonger vs builder.

No warmonger builds only units... I mean don't you need to build barracks to have better quality units? dont you need temples and chathedrals to quell disorders to resume unit production?

No builder builds only buildings and domestic improvements. Then a feeble warrior can capture an entire empire.

People declare themselves warmonger or builder, but remember, they are not at the opposite pole of the 0 - 100 level of spectrum. You'll find most people within 30 - 70 range. Thus, to assume builder's miltary weak, or to assume warmonger's infrastructure feeble while may sound plausible, is not a fact nor a intelligent assumption to base your conclusion nor bse play strategy.

	16-11-2002 09:30									#7
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King;

quote: I don't think that anyone could be a builder and stand a chance

Drachen;
I think Marcus and Calc make a good point in that nobody can be purely a builder or a warrior and that we play within a continuum. I have found that both styles can work at Monarch and Emperor for single player: I have never heard that Deity can be won by building but would love to see the thread if anyone knows one. I actually prefer builder because I think it’s more difficult than warmongering. You have to compete with the AI in the areas in which it excels (cheats), i.e. production and research. Why should I consider it to be fun or challenging to beat an opponent who chooses to fill transports with warriors rather than tanks? The AI just can’t fight…but people can. When you rush the AI it keeps building settlers and rarely forms alliances. What are you going to do when you have four cities trying to out produce eight cities using integrated defenses and your opponent is chatting up your neighbors to tell them you just left the back door wide open? Even if you win it’s likely to be so exhausting that the builder on the other side of the continent will be more than ready when you show up. I’m not saying that the build strategy will dominate in PTW post patch but rather that it’s not clear yet just exactly what mix will.

	16-11-2002 09:50									#8
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Deity can be won by "builders" and at least one was posted. I would think that OCC would count as a builder and that surely can be done at Deity.

	16-11-2002 11:15									#9
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I think that in MP it is not the builder or warmonger scenario that it is with SP.

MP will be a more offensive vs. deffensive game. Yes most warmongers will fall in the offensive range and builders will fall in the deffensive range but you never know.

I do know that for the most part Civ favors a deffensive strategy probably untill flight.

I think Flight will be the major difference in MP. the problem is that flight is not balanced as you can not send both fighters and bombers on missions at the same time

	16-11-2002 11:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Drachen King; Drachen; I think Marcus and Calc make a good point in that nobody can be purely a builder or a warrior and that we play within a continuum. I have found that both styles can work at Monarch and Emperor for single player: I have never heard that Deity can be won by building but would love to see the thread if anyone knows one. I actually prefer builder because I think it’s more difficult than warmongering. You have to compete with the AI in the areas in which it excels (cheats), i.e. production and research. Why should I consider it to be fun or challenging to beat an opponent who chooses to fill transports with warriors rather than tanks? The AI just can’t fight…but people can. When you rush the AI it keeps building settlers and rarely forms alliances. What are you going to do when you have four cities trying to out produce eight cities using integrated defenses and your opponent is chatting up your neighbors to tell them you just left the back door wide open? Even if you win it’s likely to be so exhausting that the builder on the other side of the continent will be more than ready when you show up. I’m not saying that the build strategy will dominate in PTW post patch but rather that it’s not clear yet just exactly what mix will.

When I say 'builder' or 'warmonger', I don't mean someone who builds only buildings or units. I was thinking about early game, when the obvious targets would be human. If you started next to a human player, you would be pumping archers as fast as you could.

	16-11-2002 11:58									#11
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quote: 'builder' or 'warmonger', I don't mean someone who builds only buildings or units

Never thought you did.

quote: If you started next to a human player, you would be pumping archers as fast as you could.

O.K. Let's say PTW is working and there's 4 AI and 4 people on a large Pangea. Would you pump archers? How does that play out so that you win the game and not just the war? And...has anybody been able to try it yet?

	16-11-2002 12:10									#12
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vmxa1;

quote: Deity can be won by "builders" and at least one was posted. I would think that OCC would count as a builder and that surely can be done at Deity.

Drachen; I know I've seen something about this but never tried it and don't remember much about it. If you know a link with a description or zip at deity I'd love to look it over.

	16-11-2002 14:18									#13
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There was/is a thread about peacefulbuilding. Change the election to show the last 100 days and look under Gen or Strat.