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nbarclay
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Huntsville, Alabama
Dec 1999
time: 23:23
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Contrasting the build dates for the ancient wonders (and keep in mind both games are Monarch level):
AU 105:
Colossus - Iroquois, 1225 BC
Great Lighthouse - Egypt (me) 825 BC
Pyramids - Iroquois, 470 BC
Great Library - Egypt, 210 BC
Oracle - Aztecs, 530 BC
Great Wall - Egypt, 10 AD
Hanging Gardens - Iroquois, 250 AD
AU 205:
Colossus: Iroquois - 1225 BC
Puyramids - Carthage (me), 750 BC
Oracle - Iroquois , 710 BC
Great Lighthouse - Aztecs, 250 BC
Great Wall - Iroquois, 230 BC
Great Library - Carthage, 130 BC
Hanging Gardens - Carthage, 290 AD
From this, it's hard to make the case that the AIs are particularly more aggressive in pursuing wonders in PtW than they were before. In both cases, the Iroquois got three, I got three, and the Aztecs got one, and the timing difference is probably small enough to be explained by differences in build costs for the different sets of wonders we got.
The AI research rate hasn't been as much faster as I might have expected either, especially considering that an AI edged me out for the Great Lighthouse this time around (thanks to my delay building the Pyramids) so I couldn't prevent AIs in the two hemispheres from contacting each other the way I did in the first game. The first AI entered the industrial era around 1200 or just a little before this time, vs. 1290 or a little before in the previous game. That's small enough that differences in contact times and trade interactions might be able to account for it, but it's enough of a difference to stop me from steamrolling the world with cavalry the way I did in 105. Actually, my own military operations are going slower this time, probably because my research is going a little faster and I stopped to build factories before I finished conquering my hemisphere. (Guess what I was doing all night last night?  )
Nathan
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jshelr
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pittsburgh
Apr 2002
time: 00:23
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Arabs Prove Expert at Jungle Warfare
I hadn’t played AU105 or the Arabs before. So, that looked like a learning experience. The game was played on Emperor level.
We decided to research toward Monarchy. Arabia was first to each tech on that branch at 10% science.
We also managed to slip our scout immediately by the edge of Rome and that probably helped us a lot as the game unfolded. 
There was good opening turf. However, Rome limited us to 4 decent cities and we left the tundra open. Four cities proved to be plenty as our workers turned them into swordmen factories. As our vet swordmen lined up to attack Rome, Greece attacked them first. We waited a few turns for Rome’s legions to migrate south. The peninsula then fell like knife through butter and we quickly owned cities all the way out to the gem mountains.
Made peace with the rump of Rome for some tech. Researched Monarchy and traded with Greece for construction and Literature. Started GL in Mecca which turned out to be a killer city with shields over 20. Had used a leader to build the HG and the FP was cooking in Rome, pretty well-placed.
The Greeks made unreasonable demands at that point, probably because Persia had earlier. Persia was not a real threat and, feeling feisty, we refused the Greeks. They declared war and we allied with Rome so Greece could beat them up first. Mecca built the GL and the tundra space to our north was occupied by Rome. Used a leader for Sistine Chapel.
Greeks had lots of regular units. Need to fix this if we really are going to have a killer AI. Made peace without gaining anything with Greece and Persia received 80 gold.
Sailed over to the other continent with only one galley.
Greece tried to go through our land to get to the remaining Roman tundra city. That let us bushwack them as they declared war on us after a demand that they leave. Arabia then slugged it out in the Jungle with Greece, triggering the GA with an AW. This was not going to be good turf for AWs, although they look like a fabulous UU. Cheap three-move knights with religion.  China fades into the past.
Built a couple of AW armies and gradually wore Greece down. MI covered by Hoplites in the jungle were not fun, but we matched up with pikes and MIs. The AI was too impatient and we were able to maintain the advantage in individual combat. Human players would have been much tougher to dislodge from the jungle.
I was definitely not impressed with the AI research speed in this particular game, although I can’t help on comparisons with AU105. We are about to break out of the jungle and the AWs are going to rock! 
Last edited by jshelr on 17-11-2002 at 01:32
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ducki
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I'll post more once I've completed the game, but just so everyone knows, you can beat Regular and Veteran Immortals with a Vet/Elite Horseman/Archer force. I had a single Elite Swordsman that I had to be painfully careful with, but with careful tactical use of cultural borders, roads (and the lack thereof) and a nearby barracks, I was able to use 3-4 Archers and 2-3 Horsemen with a single, cowardly Swordsman to fend off a steady stream of Immortals and Archers.
If it hadn't been for my revolution 1 turn before completing the Hanging Gardens - postponing its completion, and therefore my Golden Age until I was out of Despotism, I never would have had the production value to crank out enough Mercenaries and Horsemen to hold my beachhead city that (I thought) stole Persia's only source of Iron.
Hehe, more on that later, I have to reload a save to get a screenshot that shows why I was able to fend off such a steady stream of Immortals with measly Archers and Horsemen until reinforcements could arrive.
I don't know for sure, but I think that timing may very well win the game for me. One turn earlier and I'm in a despotic GA, ugh!
P.S. I lucked out and hit Rome after Ironworking but before they actually built Legions in the first war and wiped them out in the second. This warmongering thing is getting easier.
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Killerdaffy
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in other words a gang leader aspiring to Presidency
Nov 2001
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by nbarclay
Contrasting the build dates for the ancient wonders (and keep in mind both games are Monarch level):
AU 105:
Colossus - Iroquois, 1225 BC
Great Lighthouse - Egypt (me) 825 BC
Pyramids - Iroquois, 470 BC
Great Library - Egypt, 210 BC
Oracle - Aztecs, 530 BC
Great Wall - Egypt, 10 AD
Hanging Gardens - Iroquois, 250 AD
AU 205:
Colossus: Iroquois - 1225 BC
Puyramids - Carthage (me), 750 BC
Oracle - Iroquois , 710 BC
Great Lighthouse - Aztecs, 250 BC
Great Wall - Iroquois, 230 BC
Great Library - Carthage, 130 BC
Hanging Gardens - Carthage, 290 AD |
AU 205 Killer AI on Emperor:
Colossus: Iroquois 1500BC
Oracle: Aztecs 1425BC
Pyramids: Ottomans (me) 1025BC
Great Lighthouse: Persians 900BC
Great Library: Greeks 900BC
Hanging Gardens: Iroquois 70BC
The Iroquois got most of the other wonders, of the early Medieval I only managed to build Sun Tzu and Leonardo's. Generally the get the title "most improved" while in terms of infrastructure India was still ahead (I spotted a couple of coal plants, not bad...)
After going back and looking at AU 105 again, I figured that I wouldn't need to much additional territory for a domination win, so I attacked in 1325AD. I could have ROP raped them and won quickly (the attack force was 68 Sipahi) but I consider that cheating, so I just got an MPP with India instead. They didn't help a bit but forced me back into the war in the same turn that I had finally managed to make peace, duh! Anyway, the Ottoman UU carried the day, I finally got a couple of leaders and one turn before Istanbul finished ToE (leader standing by for Hoover) the Ottoman Empire finally DOMINATED the world... (5589 points)
Acknowledgements: All the praise goes to the Sipahi! Without them this campaign would never have worked out, since they are the only thing that can still slice through Riflemen when all other offensive operations cease before the advent of tanks. Nothing short of MA has the same relative force and speed and until somebody gets Nationalism they OWN every landmass anyway.
 Attachment: vicory post.jpg
This has been downloaded 313 time(s).
Last edited by Killerdaffy on 17-11-2002 at 04:58
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jshelr
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pittsburgh
Apr 2002
time: 00:23
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Thanks for setting up what turned out to be a very exciting game for me. After bashing heads with Greece for hundreds of years, the Arabs didn't have the energy that KillerD's civ demonstrated. We settled for an SS shot, but it was a very close multiple civ race.
Anyway, I wanted to demonstrate to myself, and anyone else who's remotely interested, that doing your own research is unimportant on Emperor.
After the war with Greece wound down, Arabia had hardly any Libraries and even needed marketplaces in some core cities. Woeful infrastructure, and we will still in Monarchy with most civs in Democracy.
So, we researched exactly one tech ourselves after the wheel and the Monarchy line in the ancient era before fission (Scientific Method).
1) We were never more than a tech or so behind.
2) By the start of the modern era, we had mega bucks in gold and, actually, never succeeded in spending it.
3) We got the SS by completing Seti and research labs in all good cities early in the Modern Era.
This strat works like a good mile racer. Stay close behind and husband resources for the final sprint to the finish. Only the finish counts.
Idea: Don't buy from the leader. Buy from a friendly commercial civ like france or india that is just behind the leader.
Next question is whether we really want the game to let the human player implement this strat successfully. The game would actually be harder if the AI had a more modest research cost advantage but tech trading were made more restrictive. But that's another thread.
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ducki
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I've failed to keep a good log, so forgive the lack of details.
First off, the Wonder list, Regent difficulty. Unfortunately, I forget if I played the Killer AI or not.
Colossus - Carthage(me) - 900BC
Pyramids - Aztec - 570BC
Oracle - Iroquois - 510BC
Hanging Gardens - Carthage(me) - 70BC
Great Lighthouse - Iroquois - 280AD
Great Wall - Aztec - 290AD
Great Library - Aztec - 580AD
Sistine Chapel - Carthage(me) - 690AD
SunTzu's AoW - Carthage(me) - 770AD
Leonardo's Wkshop - Aztec - 780AD
Bach's - Carthage - 1210AD
Copernicus' Observatory - Persia - 1280AD
Magellan's Voyage - Carthage - 1315AD
Smith's TC - Carthage - 1340AD
Shakespeare's Theatre - Persia - 1420AD
Since I was Commercial, I beelined for Lit. in case I needed the boost of the Library. Caesar had me hemmed in, so I was already pretty sure he had to fall.
Shortly after meeting Caesar, I traded Masonry+Writing for Warrior Code+18g from Caesar. I immediately started building Archers, Rome was way to close for comfort.
In 1475BC we declared war on Caesar with 8 or so archers, no defense, but 3 Numidian Mercs in training.
We took Rome and Veii, but feel we desperately need temples. How can we appease the gods without Temples?
In 1350BC we made peace with Caesar for Ironmaking, Pottery, Wheel and met Greece on the same turn.
From Greece, we learned of Ceremonial Burial.
Soon after, more Archers and a Handful of Horsemen finished off the rest of Caesars jungle kingdom and settled in for a phase of Building, planning to allow Greece to spend time expanding while I spent time fixing the problems this rather early expansion caused - no defense, little culture, not enough developed land, and an insufficient road network.
Well, that's as far as my log takes me.
I've since banished Alexander to the medium sized Island south of his original Lands and have a foothold on Persia, who is next on the chopping block.
Unfortunately, with those two wonders, he probably has enough culture that I need to wipe him out completely, which will put a strain on my Cavalry, particularly with Riflemen defending his cities. I'll have to bring a lot of cannon, it seems.
This has been a barrel of something fun. Thanks for setting it up guys!
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Dominae
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I never actually finished this game (see below), but I played through what were surely the most interesting parts. I chose the Vikings, as I wanted to allay or confirm my fears that the Berserk is a problematic UU.
I get off to quick start with my Scout contacting the Romans and Greeks relatively early on (pretty hard to miss the Romans, I know). I got a few techs out of the Scout too, although I don't remember which ones. The power of Expansionist here was that I could see that very early war with the Romans was a necessity. I therefore sneak-attacked the Romans with only 3 Archers and 2 Warriors. With their forces out defending their Settlers and exploring the continent, I didn't get much resistance, and it was a simple matter to avoid counter-attacks while pillaging the local countryside. In a few turns, Rome was crippled and I knew I could conquer it without too much additional help.
Oh, and I got a nice break: a GL from an Elite Archer. Here's the screenshot from the turn after Healfdene was created:
Attachment: 205 screen1.jpg
This has been downloaded 217 time(s).
Last edited by Dominae on 04-12-2002 at 02:37
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Dominae
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As this was the first time I got a super-early GL, I took quite some time to figure out what I wanted to do with the little bugger. With the location of my capital, I figured some sort of Palace re-arrangement scheme was in order. The problem was that there was really no nice spot to put the new palace; the main body of the continent was nice and central, but was currently a mass of jungle. Overestimating my ability to cut down the stuff, I came up with a new plan: build a city right in the middle of the continent, use the GL to rush the Pyramids, and use the culture from that Wonder to ensure a successful Palace jump. I conquered the Romans pretty quick and set out to implement my plan.
Let me just take this moment to say that super-early Pyramids are an incredible use of a super-early GL. While it is commonly believe that the Pyramids are better conquered that built, when obtained so early it's just awesome.
A few years later, after eliminating the Romans and setting up a lot of new cities in the Great Jungle, I realised that my Palace-jump plan wasn't so great after all. After the jump, I would be left with under 2 high-production cities, the rest being lost to corruption or hampered by the lack of workable tiles. I thus decided not to jump the Palace after all. I also had a good feeling that the map was edited so as to make the Iron Works available at the starting location, so leaving my capital there would pay off in the long run (I still don't know whether the IW are possible...). Here's a screen from that time in my game:
Attachment: 205 screen2.jpg
This has been downloaded 212 time(s).
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Dominae
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The Pyramids were a real help in clearing the Great Jungle. I tried something new by setting my very corrupt, jungle cities to produce nothing but Workers. Sure, my infrastructure suffered, but I got that Jungle cut down in no time. The city where I originally planned to Palace jump to rushed a Courthouse and started on the Forbidden Palace.
Since I was still using Horsemen and Swordsmen as offensive units, I chose the Persians as my next military target (rather than the Hoplite-infested Greeks). Upon scouting out their island with Galleys I saw (to my great surprise) that they had left the entire West coast uninhabited! So, instead of rushing in with military units, I quickly set up 3 cities along the coast. Each of them constructed Walls first (yep, Walls!), then each built one of Barracks, Harbor and Courthouse. I assumed that the Persians would have a bunch of Immortals standing around, and so I used a "defense is the best offense" maxim to get a foothold on their island. Sure enough, the Persians declared war and threw their many many Immortals at my cities. Between my hardy defenders (Walls are pretty good) and nimble counter-attackers, I weathered the Immortal storm with minimal losses, which set me up nicely to turn around and assault their cities. I was much more successful than they were in this endeavour:
Last edited by Dominae on 04-12-2002 at 02:36
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Dominae
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Here's the screenshot I forgot to include in the last post:
Attachment: 205 screen3.jpg
This has been downloaded 210 time(s).
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Dominae
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The next millenia is spent finishing off the Persians, building the FP, working all tiles in the core around the future FP, and mustering an army of Berserks, Knights and Galleys.
Oh, I almost forgot. Once contact with all other civs was obtained, I saw that everyone hated me (the Arrian deception just doesn't work for me...). I was slightly behind in tech, and doing my own research was not an option (my militaristic behaviour neglected any real economy). I got what I could out of the Persians, but was too poor to obtain the entry-level Middle age techs. Falling behind in tech seemed unavoidable...
But wait! The Great Library hasn't been built yet! Huzzah! I use a Leader from the war with the Persians to rush it, and it nets me Feudalism, Monotheism, Theology and Chivalry the next turn. I pawn some of these off for Engineering and start on Invention. All is well.
Here's a screenshot from the turn before I finish the FP (the cities surrounding the FP city were taken off Courthouses the following turn, for obvious reasons):
Attachment: 205 screen4.jpg
This has been downloaded 204 time(s).
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Dominae
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I prepare a nice force of Berserks for conquering the Greek cities in the Southeast tip of the continent, and set up ground assault of Knights and Musketmen on the mainland along our border. I declare war and largely let the Greek forces come to me, conquering only one city in the first turn of war. The second turn is spent mopping up all the Longbowmen and Medieval Infantry the Greeks are trying to use against me. The third turn I decide to unleash my Berserks: I grab four coastal cities in one turn, destroying 8 defenders (2 in each city, since all the support is busy with my Knights) and losing only 1 Berserk.
Golden Age begun!
What lead I had is cemented over the next few turns, as I'm able to: 1) surpass the rest of the world in research, 2) build up infrastructure in my core cities, 3) continue conquering the Greeks with my large standing army (which is shortly upgraded to Cavalry).
Although all of this sounds pretty glorious, I was frustrated that everyone hated me, and I foresaw a long, bloody end-game despite my superior position. I retire with around 1900 points, with the Greeks a distant second at 1000 points. I was subsequently convinced by Theseus to continue this game, but when I went back my autosaves had all been written over, and I didn't feel like doing it all over again. So, I unfortunately don't have a screenshot of my wonderful Golden Age, but I believe it met the expectations of this scenario.
All in all, another good learning experience. I now have to focus on playing the games through to the end!
Dominae
Last edited by Dominae on 04-12-2002 at 09:04
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Dominae
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Oh, and I forgot to mention that I switched to Monarchy once it became available and never even considered Republic in the thousand or so years afterward. My game was an exercise in sustained aggression, which wouldn't have been possible under Republic. I hope this shows that Monarchy does have its place, even for non-Religious civs.
Dominae
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De Gaulle
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San Diego, CA
Jun 2002
time: 21:23
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Interesting write-up Dominae. I had never imagined the power of a 2950BC leader... And I probably would have kept it for a while to build the FP in the jungle. But using it to build the pyramids so early when you have only 3 cities seems a much better idea! Would you dare to say "gamebreaking"?
And I liked your point about using totally corrupt cities to produce only workers for a long while. I have done this a few times when I was very successful during the REX phase. It makes sense since these corrupt cities can only contribute population points to your empire while your core cities have always something more important to build along with a greater need for their population points. And even these corrupt cities can build workers reasonnably fast...
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by De Gaulle
And even these corrupt cities can build workers reasonnably fast... |
Exactly ten turns, if you've got the food. Given that I had the Pyramids, I was actually hoping to build Workers in my corrupt cities faster just to keep my population down (to avoid unhappiness)!
I believe this strategy (build Workers in corrupt cities) fit nicely into my game because I knew most of my corrupt cities would become useful once my FP came online. Thus I could afford to "waste time" building Workers instead of focusing on Courthouses, Aqueducts, and happiness improvements. The upshot was that once my cities became productive, the surplus of Workers had already worked all the tiles surrounding them, making for a big jump in power.
Dominae
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Dominae
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quote:
Originally posted by De Gaulle
And it helps the core cities as well since they can grow faster and focus on other things. |
I can't believe I overlooked this in your original post. Yes, this is the primary advantage to the strategy in question. Unless you're using temporary Worker factories, using your corrupt cities to produce Workers allows for a very productive core. If you still need them, it's not too much to expect a Settler or two from your corrupt cities, either.
Dominae
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Arrian
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Kneel before Grog!
Jul 2001
time: 00:23
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Dominae,
I do stuff like that all the time, Pyramids or not - so long as I can find a 2-food tile in a totally corrupt town, he can build a worker every 10 turns. If the city will be worthless until a FP is done, as in your example, that is often the best use for the city.
By the way, regarding the use of Monarchy for a long time as a non-religious civ, do you remember my "Ultimate Power" thread? I was China, I switched to Monarchy early and never ever switched again. It can be done - if the game circumstances favor near-continuous fighting, sticking with Monarchy can be worthwhile. I only did it that one time, though.
Super early Pyramids do rock. I had been playing Egypt too much, and so could consider that a viable option due to my deep and abiding hatred of despotic GAs. Now that I'm trying some PTW civs, I've had the opportunity.
-Arrian
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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Well, started playing AU 205 yesterday night, and charged my way forward with the bold Ottomans (regent, non-killer AI for now...)!
Things started quite smoothly, with the city of Rome quickly falling victim to a small clutch of archers, followed a few turns later by the conquest of Antium. With the Romans pinned down in the south, I was free to settle the northern half of the starting continent. A few boat trips later, and I also had three cities on the rich northern peninsula of the Persian continent. With a good base of cities in place, and no outside pressures, I turned to wonder-building in my capital. The Great Library was my first success, but quickly followed by missing out on the Great Lighthouse by a single turn. Not to be deterred, I followed up with the Great Wall, and then after a quick flip to Monarchy, the Hanging Gardens.
It was at that point that the Greeks, whom I have a long and bloody history with in these AU games, tried a sneak attack on my southern-most city. My spearmen held out, and the Romans were called upon to join me in a crusade. With the Romans serving as a sacrificial block between my lands and the Greeks, I was able to prepare a small flotilla of galleys carrying swordsmen down to make a behind-the-lines landing on the Eastern edge of Greek lands. A short boat ride later, and my swordsmen held two cities at the rear of the Greek frontier.
At that point, the Persians decided to become involved. A stack of Immortals lay siege to my city at the base of their peninsula, taking it quickly. The boats in the north were quickly loaded with swordsmen looking to take it back.
That's where I am right now; no golden age yet, but I'm doing pretty well, I feel. I'll try to post some pics shortly!
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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Golden Age begins! Film at 11! Completion of the Great Wall propelled my busy Ottomons into a golden age, just at the conclusion of the Greek war, and just in time to deal with the traitorous Romans. The Romans, with their civilization built deep in the heart of the jungle, had a natural barrier. Fortunately, with mass production of Med. Infantry, and some galleys running coastal shuttles, we were able to make rapid headway. With their first line of cities taken, my newly trained Knights came down to finish the job.
The golden age also gave me a jump on the Sistine Chapel in my capital, and AoW in my other wonder-building city.
Unfortunately, as things were going well with the Romans, the evil Persians launched a sneak attack against my cities on their continent. My fortress line blocking the peninsula was not as heavily defended as I would have liked, and only held out for 2 turns.Overwhelmed by stacks of Immortals, there was nothing even my pikemen could do. The Persians took both cities in rapid succession, and burned them to the ground! A hasty peace was made with Rome, leaving them with only their capital and a small village, and my war-machine was aimed at the Persian backstabbers.
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16-11-2002 00:21
Shortly thereafter a runner brings the news from the Southern Jungles that Athens has been spotted.
So there was a downside to choosing to use that early leader on the Pyramids, right? 
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