18-11-2002 14:11									#31
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Civ2 had only 2 scenarios, with no new units, graphics, sounds, or anything else. You had to by an XP to get real scenarios. Sound familiar?

I bought CIV 2 for my Mac 1997. I don't think it was any extended version, just the vanilla game out of the box, and it had both the Roman and the WWII scenarios built in. Both scenarios were great and challenged me for perhaps 2 months when I was fed up with random map games. I am still waiting for similar scenarios for CIV3, ONE YEAR after it's release and in the days of Internet.

Perhaps they made the CIV3 editor crappy to prevent ordinary users from creating scenarios, so they themselves could sell a third CIV edition with scenarios?

	19-11-2002 01:35									#32
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Civ2 had only 2 scenarios, with no new units, graphics, sounds, or anything else. You had to by an XP to get real scenarios. Sound familiar?

Incorrect as already stated above by Olaf. Civ2 came with proper scenario support out of the box. The Rome and WW2 used the original graphic set but were scenarios in the proper sense of the word. In the months afterwards Microprose also released a number of scenarios (which did include new graphics) for free download. The scenario format was easy to understand and documented so simple fan scenarios appeared quite early.

About a year later two scenarios discs (CiC en FW) would follow that did have new rules, graphics and better scenario support. These disc contained about a dozen new scenarios each and a small "best of the net" fan made selection. When compared with the original CiC and FW scenarios most of those fan efforts were quite poor. It would take about two years before scenarios like Captain Nemo's Red Front or Western Front fully surpassed their commericial counterparts.

	19-11-2002 02:27									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I would love it if Fraxis was like MS.

The game would be improved on a regular basis for many, many years.
Almost everyone in the world would be playing all the time.
Fraxis would produce many wonderfull add-on products to go along with the game.
The game would be thought of by most people to be the best of it's kind.

And, you would be able to go into most business and find a game running at any time.

	19-11-2002 02:37									#34
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by ArmaGeddin The game would be improved on a regular basis for many, many years. Almost everyone in the world would be playing all the time. .......... would produce many wonderfull add-on products to go along with the game. The game would be thought of by most people to be the best of it's kind.

That sounds familiar....Are you talking about Freeciv ?

	19-11-2002 02:57									#35
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I played around with FreeCiv for a while at work. It really did not make much of an impression on me.

	19-11-2002 03:49									#36
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Incorrect as already stated above by Olaf. Civ2 came with proper scenario support out of the box. The Rome and WW2 used the original graphic set but were scenarios in the proper sense of the word. In the months afterwards Microprose also released a number of scenarios (which did include new graphics) for free download. The scenario format was easy to understand and documented so simple fan scenarios appeared quite early.

What?

No. Actually, everything I said was correct. Civ2 came with only 2 scenarios, which had no new graphics, units, sounds, etc.

I don't know what you are talking about, I said nothing about scenario support or anything else. My statement was 100% factual, and I find it astonishing that you could even suggest it is incorrect.

	19-11-2002 12:26									#37
	Remove this text

Firaxis is NOT like Microsoft.

Microsoft is proftable.

Firaxis is owned by Infogrames which is in dire financial straights: http://www.softwareresearcher.com/c...re%20Researcher Just look at the net income drop!

That is why Firaxis was pushed to release both Civ 3 and PTW as buggy betas to try to get some quick cash for the parent company.

	19-11-2002 13:17									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle Firaxis is owned by Infogrames which is in dire financial straights: http://www.softwareresearcher.com/c...re%20Researcher Just look at the net income drop! That is why Firaxis was pushed to release both Civ 3 and PTW as buggy betas to try to get some quick cash for the parent company.

What about getting your facts right, eh? Firaxis is not "owned" by IG, they are hired to develop Civ3. See http://www.firaxis.com/company_about.cfm. Can you read anything about Firaxis being a subsidiary of IG there?

That said, it most probably is true that IG's financial troubles indirectly pushed the release date and thus accounted for much of the MP-related problems...

	19-11-2002 16:24									#39
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Don't know if anyone else's experiences match mine but don't Microsoft games tend to work out of the box - no patches required.

maybe it's a side effect of having written the OS

	20-11-2002 02:10									#40
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 What? No. Actually, everything I said was correct. Civ2 came with only 2 scenarios, which had no new graphics, units, sounds, etc. I don't know what you are talking about, I said nothing about scenario support or anything else. My statement was 100% factual, and I find it astonishing that you could even suggest it is incorrect.

Sorry about that, read that one in the context of Olaf's post and wanted to set the record straight. You were indeed correct on the original Civ2. Although Microprose did release some free scenarios with new units after Civ2 came out (which also appeared on CiC). Something I have to see Firaxis still do at this point.

	20-11-2002 02:12									#41
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quote: Originally posted by ArmaGeddin I played around with FreeCiv for a while at work. It really did not make much of an impression on me.

It's one of those games that grows on you with time...

	20-11-2002 02:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by TacticalGrace Don't know if anyone else's experiences match mine but don't Microsoft games tend to work out of the box - no patches required.

And if they don't, don't hold your breath for a patch because it ain't coming.

	20-11-2002 04:17									#43
	Increase Your PM Length

I suspect that in the days of civ2 coming out the number of people connected to the internet and downloading things was much smaller. Now it is presumed that most have access and can get scenarios from the web with little difficulty. Still many games do provide maps on their site, Hoeros IV, Disciples II and others.

	20-11-2002 04:28									#44
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK Although Microprose did release some free scenarios with new units after Civ2 came out (which also appeared on CiC). Something I have to see Firaxis still do at this point.

Hmm, could you point these scenarios out to me? I am only aware of CiC and FW... I thought CiC was pretty ridiculous at the time (I have to pay for just 20 scenarios?), I never saw any free scenarios. Where did you find these?

	20-11-2002 06:13									#45
	Got spare money?

XP is wonderful, but thats just my two cents.

	20-11-2002 17:18									#46
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 I suspect that in the days of civ2 coming out the number of people connected to the internet and downloading things was much smaller. Now it is presumed that most have access and can get scenarios from the web with little difficulty. Still many games do provide maps on their site, Hoeros IV, Disciples II and others.

I am still waiting for a working WWII scenario for CIV3, if made by Firaxis or a common user doesn't matter. In CIV2, I got it out of the box, it worked, and it was highly challenging and well balanced. Have you seen any?

	20-11-2002 23:52									#47
	Tired of ads?

Nope, but the future will be bring less with new games, not more. They gotta cut cost and it cost time and money to make a scenario, so sad. It is just like food in the store, most items have less for more money now.

	21-11-2002 00:55									#48
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Hmm, could you point these scenarios out to me? I am only aware of CiC and FW... I thought CiC was pretty ridiculous at the time (I have to pay for just 20 scenarios?), I never saw any free scenarios. Where did you find these?

That's because they were also included on CiC. If you had checked out the Microprose ftp site at the time (1996) you would have noticed they would release a free scenario every two months or so. Age of Discovery, Alexander the Great were released this way. Later they decided to release a data disk with an improved macro language and they dropped the free scenarios (which ended up on CiC though).

	21-11-2002 16:55									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Nope, but the future will be bring less with new games, not more. They gotta cut cost and it cost time and money to make a scenario, so sad. It is just like food in the store, most items have less for more money now.

This is a basic question in all product development (I'm an R&D guy myself, so this is my home turf): Should we make a product that's so cheap that people will buy it even if the quality is only average, or should we make a product that is perfect but expensive? The question is not so easy to answer, but I think the latter will be better for long-term business. I think Blizzard is an outstanding example.

The optimal would of course be to make a product both technically perfect and cost-effective, but that rarely happens. On the other hand, you quite often see gaming software that is both crappy and expensive. These titles rarely reach the top10 sales of course, so the companies are automatically punished for their ignorance.

I think a game where you have spent some money to make it technically perfect will live much longer than an average game produced at low cost. A boring or buggy game will not be played, even if was cheap, and the rumours of it's low value will make it sell less.


If Firaxis didn't have the money to ship some scenarios with the box, couldn't they at least make an editor that allows scenarios so we could design them ourselfs?

	22-11-2002 02:54									#50
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre If Firaxis didn't have the money to ship some scenarios with the box, couldn't they at least make an editor that allows scenarios so we could design them ourselfs?

Maybe because coding that editor would cost even more time and money (programmers are more expensive than scenraio builders) than the scenarios that they didn't have the money to make.