16-11-2002 00:52									#1
	Is Firaxis Just Like Microsoft? Full PM-box? Change here!

Firaxis is just like microsoft

first: microsoft created an exceptional opertating system in windows 2000 Pro. pretty much all it needed was some tweaking and system restore. Windows Xp (xp is so poorly put together, just do some research) before the service pack had troubles competing with 98SE. So the people at microsoft decided to end support of 2000 and build off of 98SE. Why? you cant make people upgrade from a great OS to one that has almost no change. Why would you buy windows 2002 if windows 2000 is near perfect?

Second: Firaxis has always known people want diplomacy and governments like alpha centauri. But if you want people to buy civ 4 you cannot put those in Civ 3. Civ 3 is all the little tweaks everyone wanted minus the things that would make it an exceptional game. Expect better diplomacy in civ 4... Why build off of AC, which was only missing more civs and an updated Multiplayer when you can build off of civ 2 and make 3-5 "new, better" games (civ4,civ5,civ2012) afterwards. Lets just hope they dont make single player and multiplayer separate again

(note they dont call it civ 6, they give it a year, see the resemblence to microsoft?)

	16-11-2002 01:30									#2
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Just like them minus the billions of dollars in the bank....
Is it just possible that we are not required to assign the most devious of motives to people we do not know?

	16-11-2002 01:42									#3
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Your comparison isn't that great, its more your opinion then anything else. I've been using WinXP ever since I got this new comp, and its far improved over Win98 and has had no crashes but some related to my onboard sound and games that don't like it. I've never had a reason not to like it, quite a good OS for me.

What you're basically proposing is just either not making a new game or cloning and slightly improving the old one. I'd much rather them strive for new concepts then old ones redone, it makes the game much more interesting and worth it for me. Of course these new concepts can backfire, or alienate the group the loved the old game, but thats a risk more companys should take. Too many games are just being rehashed. But anyway, just my opinon.

	16-11-2002 02:54									#4
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What a wonderful rant!

I guess the awesome example with Win98, Win2000, and WinXP just sums it up... using WinXP Pro myself for almost a year now, being absolutely 1000% happy with this OS, I find it rather ironic seeing that as an example of how bad the Firaxis approach to Civ3 should be...

	16-11-2002 03:09									#5
	Re: Is Firaxis Just Like Microsoft? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I have to agree with the others, your comparison isn't that great.

However Windows XP in my experience, well, sucks. It's incompatible with almost every piece of software I own....In fact, Civ3 didn't work at all (And stpuid support didnt help..."Oh your not an administrator" ugh.). But thats just me.

	16-11-2002 04:15									#6
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I also have ben on XP PRO since May, with no problems.
Here are the games I am running now.

Perm:
Ascendancy
Civ II Test Of Time
Civ III + PTW
Heroes II Gold
Heroes III Complete
Master Of Oion I/II
Might & Magic 6/7/8
Pax Imperium
Space Empires III/IV
Stars!

Now:
Age Of Wonder I/II
Alien Legacy
Diablo II LOD
Disciples I Gold
Disciples II
Heroes IV + TGS
Master Of Magic
Might & Magic IX
Morrowwind - The Elder Scrolls
Reach For The Stars
Red Alert 2 + Yuri
Star General
Star Ships Unlimited I/II
Warcraft II Battle Net Edition
Warcraft III
Warlords3

	16-11-2002 05:49									#7
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Tangent: wondows 2000 pro. Min requirements: 64 mb ram, 2 gig HD, pII processor
No program is allowed to touch start up files, if a program needs to use those files it is allowed to create a copy of the needed file and put it in another folder


XP: Programs can use most OS files if programmed to do so, system suggested requirements: 1.3 gig processor or higher, 512 ram, 20 gig hard drive

Back on subject:

CLARIFY ARGUEMENT (yes it is opinion, I wont stress fact as opinion unless i become a college teacher): AC had a great foundation for good gameplay etc. Civ 2 was not as good. In my opinion firaxis decided to update civ 2 rather then build off of AC which already had what most people wanted in Civ3. They pulled the same crap microsoft pulls.

	16-11-2002 06:38									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

You think that Firaxis conciously says "hmm we could put in that option, but then what would we do in 5 years when civ 4 will be released?"




Xp pro requires a 1.3 Ghz processor? what are you, crazy? My fiance runs it fine on a 700, and she's under in ram and harddrive space. And it runs perfectly. It doesn't help you to distort the facts.


There are many people here, myself included, who are glad many of the "advances" of SMAC were not included in Civ3.

Why would the "advances" of SMAC be in Civ3, anyway, they were designed by wholly different teams.

I think it was Ruby on the grassy knoll who told sid to shelve some of the SMAC ideas in order to make more money on the back end.

	16-11-2002 06:40									#9
	One more thing Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Firaxis was thinking in terms of creating a franchise (which is another word for profit ) as opposed to creating a single game. They are in no way the only company doing this.

	16-11-2002 06:43									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

"Xp pro requires a 1.3 Ghz processor? what are you, crazy? My fiance runs it fine on a 700, and she's under in ram and harddrive space. And it runs perfectly. It doesn't help you to distort the facts."


read closer, it is suggested requirements. what microsoft claims to be needed for optimum preformance

	16-11-2002 06:57									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by sprucemoose3311 "Xp pro requires a 1.3 Ghz processor? what are you, crazy? My fiance runs it fine on a 700, and she's under in ram and harddrive space. And it runs perfectly. It doesn't help you to distort the facts." read closer, it is suggested requirements. what microsoft claims to be needed for optimum preformance

from microsoft.com

Here's What You Need to Use Windows XP Professional
PC with 300 megahertz or higher processor clock speed recommended; 233 MHz minimum required (single or dual processor system);* Intel Pentium/Celeron family, or AMD K6/Athlon/Duron family, or compatible processor recommended
128 megabytes (MB) of RAM or higher recommended (64 MB minimum supported; may limit performance and some features)
1.5 gigabytes (GB) of available hard disk space*
Super VGA (800 × 600) or higher-resolution video adapter and monitor
CD-ROM or DVD drive
Keyboard and Microsoft Mouse or compatible pointing device

Of course thats the minimum, where is the optimum listed?

	16-11-2002 07:06									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm not sure about this. I have a question. Does it take lying and cheating your customers to make it big in the software, gaming industry?

Also in defense of Firaxis, Infogames is just days away from being delisted from the NASDAQ stock exchange in AMERICA. This maybe is a real indicator that infogames seriously pushed Firaxis to release Civilization 3 and Play the World in their current state to the market and the ones to suffer are of course us people. Then again I won't buy play the world until its 100% complete. I was had once by this company, I ain't getting had again by them!

	16-11-2002 07:12									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

vmxa1, you have Ascendancy? Awesome! I love that game, nobody knows what it is anymore...

Well, I like Windows XP just fine (no problems yet) and I like Civ3 just fine (no crashes yet) so I'll have to disagree with the thread author. Sorry.

	16-11-2002 09:55									#14
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Sure do and plan on getting in another game soon. I have original manual and strat guide, got it off of Ebay and it was the third time I bought it so I will hold on this time.
As to the creating a franchise, they do not own the rights as far as I know to Civ and anyway it already is a franchise.

	16-11-2002 17:23									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 vmxa1, you have Ascendancy? Awesome! I love that game, nobody knows what it is anymore...

Ascendancy....by the logic factory .. Awesome!???? You must be being sarcastic right? At least I hope so because Ascendancy is one of those eye&ear-candy games that intially appear to have amazing depth turn out to be as shallow as a puddle.

I played Ascendancy in it's prime and the graphics for the spaceships and the galaxy maps were excellent with a nice spacey background music. Too bad the AI is a lame duck. Explore a bit, colonize and build up a few planets, invent some techs, get better ships....rinse and repeat....(oh yes, sometimes you meet an AI player but that shouldn't pose too much of a problem if you took the time to create some decent ships and attack their planets on time). I always ended cruising through every game.

	16-11-2002 23:19									#16
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I like Windows XP. I'm somewhat disappointed with Civ3. Firaxis is not like Microsoft. Oranges are not apples. Hmm, I'm hungry.

	16-11-2002 23:33									#17
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Yep, the AI was pretty bad, but for its era I thought Ascendancy was a surprisingly innovative game. There is a patch for "better" AI, but it really just makes the AI more agressive. I was part of the Ascendancy community for a long time before TLF closed their forums, and since the code is so open in a lot of places we found ways to give the AI advantages, play specialized games, etc.

You're right, it pales in comparison to any game I have now, but it was one of my first TBS games and I was amazed to find anybody else who actually still had it.

	17-11-2002 00:55									#18
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Yes the AI was about the weakest around, but it still fun. The first time I usethe long range orbital whopper and the nanomanipulator I was hooked. I have the ANTAG version as well.

	17-11-2002 03:18									#19
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I might have a lot of complaints about bugs in both Microsoft products and CIV3. Quite a few times I had said about Bill Gates: "How could he become the richest man in the world by selling crap that doesn't work?" However, the alternative of not having Windows or Civilization would be even worse.

One comment that is a little off topic: No matter how much RAM you get, you can be sure that Bill Gates will be there to fill it with things you didn't ask for. My job PC quite often needs to run on virtual memory even with only Word open. I also remember upgrading the RAM of my old Mac from 8 to 24 MB. MS office jumped from using 6 MB to 16 MB. At least the available RAM for other applications when Office was open 13-doubled from 0.5 to 6.5 MB (the system took 1.5 MB).

	17-11-2002 03:39									#20
	Re: Re: Is Firaxis Just Like Microsoft? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 I have to agree with the others, your comparison isn't that great. However Windows XP in my experience, well, sucks. It's incompatible with almost every piece of software I own....In fact, Civ3 didn't work at all (And stpuid support didnt help..."Oh your not an administrator" ugh.). But thats just me.

Compared to ME, XP is a huge improvement. ME is the system you're thinking of: compatible with nothing.

Why do you think Firaxis purposely left out the gameplay elements you mentioned? Thats just...plain evil!

CG

	17-11-2002 04:10									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

The initial post reminds me of the dangers of having a TQM (Total Quality Management) system in your company without combining it with common sense. A basic idea in TQM is to make continuous improvements. This might in some cases stop you from going all the way at once, since you will have nothing left to improve.

The EU's EMAS (Environmental Management an Audit Scheme) works like that. You could theoretically dump millions of tonnes of toxic waste into a river each year and still get an EMAS licence - as long as you make small improvements each year. If you get a state-of-the-art filtering equipment and reduce the waste to 1 tonne per year in one shot, but stop to make annual improvements, you could theoretically lose your EMAS licence.

	17-11-2002 04:33									#22
	Got spare money?

Ugh.. I'll have no one comparing a company in "my backyard" to microsoft.

(then again, I really need this "chieftain" title changed...)

	17-11-2002 05:11									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Olaf you just reminded me that I need to get Warlods 3 up to see if it use all of my 512MB now. Each time I added more mem to my pc the game shows as using it all. The last time Ihad 256. Thanks for the motivation.

	18-11-2002 00:46									#24
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 You're right, it pales in comparison to any game I have now, but it was one of my first TBS games and I was amazed to find anybody else who actually still had it.

Well, Ascendancy was sort of considered the next Master of Orion (MOO). Many MOO fans also played Ascendancy but the funny thing is that the gameplay in MOO was considered better despite it being older. But you can only make that particular judgement if you played MOO in it's prime as a personal point of reference.

But if you never played MOO then I suppose Ascendancy would become your point of reference. It's just a shame that it's predecessors are left out of the equation. While there's a lot learn from them on gameplay and balancing aspects. All classics just fade away...and their lessons are forgotten.

	18-11-2002 01:40									#25
	Got spare money?

Moo faded away? Not to me. I still play it often after at least 2000 games (yeah that is sick).

	18-11-2002 02:30									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

I actually never heard of MOO until I played the Civ2 scenario of that name. Go figure.

I thought some valuable stuff could have been taken away from Ascendancy. Supposedly, TLF is working on Ascendancy II, but that has been sitting around for years. They had a forum on their old website, but they never spoke to us there or answered our e-mails about Ascend2. Eventually, after a few years, they re-did the site and thus deleted the forums.

TVK, that's a good lesson... companies should remember the lessons of previous games. It certainly would have helped Civ3 be even better.

	18-11-2002 03:19									#27
	Remove this text

TLF is making it a an online game and not getting anywhere as far as I can see. I miss the old board and have gone back many times hoping it was reinstated.

	18-11-2002 09:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by sprucemoose3311 "Xp pro requires a 1.3 Ghz processor? what are you, crazy? My fiance runs it fine on a 700, and she's under in ram and harddrive space. And it runs perfectly. It doesn't help you to distort the facts." read closer, it is suggested requirements. what microsoft claims to be needed for optimum preformance

You are only partly correct about Firaxis, but mostly right about Microsoft. Their Windows Me OS was garbage, as was their "support".

Firaxis obviously left out important and enjoyable apects of the game DELIBERATELY - no scenarios when those were one of the most popular features of Civ 2!? That's just one of example of many discussed on these forums for the past year.

Obviously it also held back a lot of stuff so we'd buy PTW. Well, some of us bought it.

I don't know if they are planning on doing a Civ 4, but so many of us were turned off by Civ 3 that I'd never buy a Firaxis version again.

BUT. . . do not always assume a conspiracy when there is just a lot of ineptitude and stupidity involved. We saw a rushed beta game hit the stores a year ago for $50 a pop, and many of the insoluble problems remain the result of it being hurried to market with dismal playtesting.

	18-11-2002 09:55									#29
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To compare Firaxis and Microsoft to me is folly the way it's put to you.

You try to portray it as a conspiracy that Firaxis is operating in the same way as Microsoft in purposefully withholding certain features to put in Civ4, which to me doesn't sound like they're doing that, really.

If Firaxis was like Microsoft, I would have to say it's in the manner that they purposefully did not allow Civ2 scenarios to be compatible with the Civ3 Editor. Of course nowadays all companies do that, so it's not a microsoft thing.

	18-11-2002 10:30									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Coracle no scenarios when those were one of the most popular features of Civ 2!? That's just one of example of many discussed on these forums for the past year.

Civ2 had only 2 scenarios, with no new units, graphics, sounds, or anything else. You had to by an XP to get real scenarios. Sound familiar?