16-11-2002 09:42									#1
	mechanics of tech trading question Increase Your PM Length

ok, I have a question about trading techs to the AI.

I was recently playing on either monarch or emperor (dont remember) and was the first to research computers (as well as a bunch of other stuff). I was so far ahead (and had already won via cultural with the babs) but was playing out a super-war just to see the sparks fly. I had a sizeable force of mech inf, MA and nukes and was getting ready to put everyone in their place when, on their turn, persia called me up on the red phone and asked to buy computers (his world map for my world map and computers, yeah right) So I asked if he would offer something for computers and it was not great but not horrible either and I say ok. He was currently at war with zululand and his only land route to them was through me , but I was letting him go without ROP just cause I was waiting to decimate everyone in a few turns.

anyhow...

the trade goes through, he says thanks and all and then, immeidiately on the same turn, I see four brand new persian mech infs enter my territory!?! How is this possible? I was under the impression that an upgraded unit has to wait till the next turn to move. is this wrong? or different for the AI? I suppose he could've been building infantries that were going to finish that turn and the became mech inf's but dont mech infs take more shields? anyhow, I was confused and wondered if anyone knew what happened here. thanks


lateralis

	16-11-2002 18:55									#2
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I would say this is a definite AI cheat, you are right that upgrades have to wait one turn. Also you cant enter into diplomacy or trade until your build orders and such have cycled, so any infantry to be completed on his turn would already exist and would have to be upgraded.

Its either a cheat or some kind of bug, Ive not seen it myself.

	16-11-2002 20:11									#3
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Don't know if you were a Civ2 player, but this was a classic Civ2 AI cheat. Looks like they kept it for Civ3.

	18-11-2002 14:59									#4
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Yeah it's a civ2 classic. An one-turn headstart on production isn't a big cheat though.

This is evidence that at least some in the civ3 development team has played civ2

	19-11-2002 02:47									#5
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Actually, I've been able to do something similar, though not during a trade. When I discovered Synthetic Fibers, the Science advisor came up and asked his usual what do you want to research next, click on the ""What's the big picture" button. From there you can switch to the domestic advisor and even into each individual city screen and change the production of your cities. By this method I was able to have 4 MAs the same turn I discovered the advance. This would lead me to believe the the AIs make trades before their cities run through the gauntlet of building so he was able to produce 4 Mech Inf units on the same turn. Sure, it might be a cheat, but it shouldn't keep you from winning.

	19-11-2002 02:52									#6
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Similarly, if you have just acquired the tech to upgrade existing units, and you get a popup message for a completed project, you can "zoom to city" and by right-clicking on the units at the bottom of the city screen, you can upgrade the units in the city (provided you have a barracks, yadda yadda) and then use them THAT TURN. That has come in handy a couple of times.

I suppose you could do the same from the F1 screen if you were willing to do more clicking, but you could then do a complete empire-wide upgrade. I'm ok with waiting a turn for the shift+U approach.

-Arrian

	19-11-2002 04:21									#7
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Arrian,

If we can do it manually not a cheap.

Very interesting, might come in handy.

Thanks

== PF

	19-11-2002 05:23									#8
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Yes very interesting, so it might not be a cheat after all. Will be trying this out for myself when I next play.

	19-11-2002 05:40									#9
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I had done that a few times, but figured, I was hallucinating and it did not happen the way I thought.

	19-11-2002 14:05									#10
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So it's a matter of using a 'loophole' in the game mechanics? After you move your last unit, the AI does their stuff, then your cities do their things and then you start all over moving units again. The interesting part happens during city production, science are added to your current research project one city at a time. When your project is done your science advisor appears asking for new orders. most of the time this happens before all of your cities are done with bulding(before their turn) which means you can issue new orders to the cities(and upgrade units) while your science advisors halt the game for you. When you start researching again cities can eventually finish their projects(new units) and units upgraded in those cities will be ready to move right away.

	19-11-2002 15:02									#11
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Other way to get MI at the same turn is naturally conscription. Does the AI use conscripted units in offensive?

	19-11-2002 23:22									#12
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Bongo,

Science is done before production. The reason I know this was a lengthy discussion about ToE, and whether or not you could time a tech discovery for the same turn as ToE completed. The answer is yes, you can. You get the tech first, and THEN ToE completes, giving you 2 more.

The way I have accessed the "upgrade inbetween turns" loophole has always been when I get a popup regarding the completion of a construction project in one of my cities.

-Arrian

	20-11-2002 13:35									#13
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Arrian, you lost me there. Is science added empire-wide before any production takes place in your cities?

I guess you could trigger this loophole by making sure a building is ready in one of your cities the same turn a new tech will be ready.