17-11-2002 02:48									#1
	War Academy: Operation: Staging Point Remove this text

We want to cut all roads connecting Berlin to the rest of the German empire during the first turn of war using explorers. In order for an explorer to cut a road in Germany, it may move up to 5 tiles so it remains with at least a fraction of a movement point, which is just enough to pillage a road.
The problem is that not all the roads leading to Germany are in range. The solution - Operation: Staging Point.
I suggest that we establish a temporary city in the marked spot. If we invest a little in culture we can penetrate into Germany's territory and increase our explorers' range to include all the roads connecting Berlin.

I'm looking forward to comments and suggestions!

Attachment: staging point.jpg
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	17-11-2002 02:52									#2
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As you can see in the illustration above, what we can hope to achieve is control of the tile NW of the highlighted tile (where we should build the city). I'm unsure if we'll gain control of that tile immediately after building the city, or after accumulating 10 culture points or even 100 culture points, but I know that it's damn worth it. If we can disconnect Germany's capital during the first turn of the war, we can make this war a lot easier!

	17-11-2002 03:35									#3
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Prposed city site is known as Napoleton Corner in Mission Reiseling lingo.

Berlin is influence level 4. Frankfurt and Stuttgart are approaching if not already influence level 4. I hold out little hopes, however all it costs is one settler, and a temple rush..This was considered early on in Mission Reiseling planning, but droped due to fear of extreme flaming from the CP boys. ie What, another Palace Centric City closer than a lot of good cities?......

Since the current snail like force structure buildout keeps pushing D-Turn into the future, we will probably know if it works before we Assault. So why not try!

Ssgt roadcage (retired)

	17-11-2002 03:57									#4
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I'm pretty sure that we would get that NW tile immediately, and certain we would get it after culture level 10.

edit: spelling

Last edited by Panzer32 on 17-11-2002 at 04:12

	17-11-2002 05:53									#5
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If we do this we need a settler. Basis the 1010 save, the nearby cities would waste lots of shields to switch. Only place to build one that can reach city site in reasonable # of turns is Ghengistown. It's got 1 turn (of 4 into a cannon) and would be 1 turn (of 3 into a settler). Ghengistown has several unused irrigated tiles so settler rush with switch to max food would have the size back to current very quickly. Since the city tiles are already overdeveloped vs its pop, some of the workers there could be re-directed to connect the proposed city site to our trade network.

Imagining we get lucky and control both the ne and nw tiles, our bombard forces would be 1 turn closer to Hamburg and Stuttgart. If we had Arty, we could lob rounds from our own territory! Sweet! Fortresses would be cool.

	17-11-2002 12:23									#6
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In ET's WF allocation chart, tiles 1 (irr, rd, grass, German), 2 (hill, German), 3 (Mt, English, not positive on this as I don't have the game right now and can't see how close the English city is), 7 (Mt, IRON, rd, German) and 8 (hill, German) would all become ours instantly. The inner city radius (the first 8 tiles around a city) automaticly become part of the new cities usable radius unless one of the inner tiles are inner tiles for another city. If the mt tile controled by England is an inner tile to an English city, then we will not take it. Second level city radius tiles will go to us if they are not second level tiles to another city. In this case, rushing a temple in this proposed city would only have the effect of giving it a better change of not culture flipping. IMHO a temple is not needed for this manuever.

	17-11-2002 20:57									#7
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hi ,

there should be a road in the "staging point"

, what about other small staging points , ......

what about building a city there , .....

have a nice day

	17-11-2002 23:31									#8
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Btw, how do you guys like my graphics? (referring to the picture attached to the top post)

	18-11-2002 03:32									#9
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Shiber - they will suffice, they get the job done and that's all you need .

	18-11-2002 14:53									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Btw, how do you guys like my graphics? (referring to the picture attached to the top post)

hi ,

thats great , huh , would it be possible to make a slightly bigger map complete with maybe some possible invasion corridors et all , ........

have a nice day

	18-11-2002 20:36									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Is your version of Civ III incompatible with the posted saved games? If it isn't, the best solution would be to just download the save and load it and then see everything for yourself.
I find that looking at the save yourself far beats looking at maps that other people made. It's more convenient and you can look at other stats too.

	18-11-2002 21:56									#12
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Depends on the plan. Staging Point (so far atleast)makes no attempt to identify multi-turn positions over the life of the campaign. At that level, the provided map is more than adequate. But yes, folks could just as easily load up the save.

Reiseling does attempt to identify turn positions atleast thru turn D-Turn + 2. It is extremely difficult to visualize the future turn positions without a set of maps to mark up. And hence it is easy to make movement errors. I know, because the first edit of the plan was for the Grand Army to go around a hill instead of across it.!

Enough of maps. I want to talk of the risks with Staging Point. The stated objective is to be able to isolate Berlin on turn 1. Is it possible? Yes! Is it likely, No!

For the plan to attain it's objective, all 8 of Berlin's tier 1 tiles must be pillagable on turn 1. 3 of the 8 tiles could be cleansed by other forces much like in Reiseling. The remaining 5 tier 1 tiles must be empty for success because none of our attack forces can reach those tiles to cleanse them. Considering that the plan could be executing while Otto is kicking off a RR campaign, I find it extremely unlikely that all 8 tier 1 tiles will be vulnerable.

roadcage

	18-11-2002 22:24									#13
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Good point there, but the risk is still worth it. Nothing is as fun as fighting a powerful adversary such as Germany and disconnecting them from all strategic sources and luxuries on turn 1 and then watching as their production line reaches a halt.
If we can't do this on turn 1 then we can do it in two turns, though the greatest advantage of this plan would be lost - if we disconnect them immediately after we declare war they can't switch cities to military units, while if we allow them one turn of war with access to their strategic resources they can switch some cities to military units and finish the units even after we disconnect Berlin.

	18-11-2002 22:40									#14
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Which cities that are FP centric would find themselves with more corruption and waste (and how much) while this city is in existanace?

	18-11-2002 23:25									#15
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I think that Staging Point would be Palace Centric. But in any event, ask E_T for corruption impacts. I don't think it will be a big deal as the city shouold not last very long.

	18-11-2002 23:30									#16
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I find Shiber's plan quite exciting, although quite unlikely to succeed. Nevertheless we should make a great effort to cut germany's resource supplies at the very first turn of the war. Another plan that i see as possible to commit, although unlikely to succeed, is this: sending an explorer in a beeline for germany's horses and pillage the road.

The benefits are obvious, and the cost is rather minimal, altough, as stated by donegeal, the chance are slim that no german unit stands in our (currently a musketman and an archer block the path, and these are only the units we can see...).

Despite all this, we might as well try- the cost is only 1 explorer, and even if fails, he might still be part of the war effort.

	18-11-2002 23:58									#17
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quote: Originally posted by zeit I find Shiber's plan quite exciting,

Just to clarify, roadcage and I both thought of this idea independantly but I understand that he voiced this idea first, so he deserves the credit.

	19-11-2002 01:41									#18
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So we have several competing resource denial strategies. Does anyone want to try to put them together? Staging point, even if it fails in it's original objective (complete isolation on turn 1) it still allows Reiseling to start one tile closer to all of it's objectives. unfortunately due to RL committments, I doubt that I will be able to do it justice but will try. We build a force structure that can execute Staging Point if possible, but have the fallback of a faster Reiseling. Reiseling required 3 turns to isolate, Staging Point will require 1 or 2 turns depending on Germany's disposition. If we can launch before Otto has RR, there is hope for 1 turn. But if RR is available, almost certainly there will be workers around Berlin. Also, Staging Point brings the Nuremburg roadway within range. In any event, we gotta get CP and PW involved pronto. We need a settler, and workers build access roads.

	19-11-2002 02:13									#19
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Roadcage, your analysis is correct. I thank you for urging the executive branch to recognize the urgency of this matter.
Build this city! Build explorers! Do it now, while we still can!

	21-11-2002 15:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Shiber Is your version of Civ III incompatible with the posted saved games? If it isn't, the best solution would be to just download the save and load it and then see everything for yourself. I find that looking at the save yourself far beats looking at maps that other people made. It's more convenient and you can look at other stats too.

hi ,

thats true , but the reason why a map posted on apolyton prevails is that people can talk about , study and post , without losing time to go to the game and back , etc , .....

we should also have several settlers ready , ......

have a nice day

	21-11-2002 20:18									#21
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If we capture the cities in good city positions instead of razing them, we won't need the settlers.

	21-11-2002 20:57									#22
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O.k. We are looking at needing 8 Explorers (20 shields each) and 1 settler (at least). How soon are we talking about here?

THe setter can be towards the begining of the war, because the city will be removed at a later date. It should be placed just before the war starts. The road to that point can be started now.

Now, during the war, are we planning on razing any cities? I know I'd like to move stutgart south by one. Or do we want to make them worker Farms?

So I'll need at least one more settler.

Now, do we want war ASAP or do we want to wait a bit and get a bit more built up to be able to take on several opponants? If we opt for ASAP, then we'll have to change from builting monitary & science building (i.e. Banks, Universities, Marketplaces & Libraries) to a full military buildup. If we wait a bit, we could have both. I've already have 2 mil units being built between improvements in some cities and more can be schedualled in.

The plans for things that will be completed for this next gameplay on Friday, won't be changed because of time constraints. But I'll need to start looking at where these will be coming from and what will have to be pushed back. Does it mater if an explorer is Vet or not?

E_T

	21-11-2002 21:39									#23
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quote: Does it mater if an explorer is Vet or not?

No. And the explorer count is higher because the Nuremburg roadway needs to be cut, (delay possible counterattack) and we want to take out the wine tile for spite! In addition, if Otto has Railroaded any of the targets, they will need to be pillaged twice.

quote: Now, during the war, are we planning on razing any cities? I know I'd like to move stutgart south by one. Or do we want to make them worker Farms?

Most will probably be razed. Once the AI's have Nationalism and are attacked, they will draft themselves into an unsurmountable 'cruel oppression' burden.

quote: THe setter can be towards the begining of the war, because the city will be removed at a later date. It should be placed just before the war starts. The road to that point can be started now.

Operation Staging Point cannot execute till atleast 1 turn AFTER the temporary City is founded. This is so the strike force can mobilize on the nw,n, and ne tier 1 tiles of the town prior to declaration. Plan on 3 additional settlers to arrive in theatre at DTurn +6, DTurn + 10, and DTurn + 12 respectively.

Another interesting tidbit is how limited our objectives can be. All we need to actually do is get Otto to change Governments!!!

	21-11-2002 22:00									#24
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Just turn all non-resiting citizens in "unmanageable" cities into entertainers, and let them strave down to a reasonable size while rush building happiness improvements.

	21-11-2002 23:43									#25
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Sorry joncnunn, but starving ADDS to the 'cruel oppression' burden. It is simply best (and probably humane) to raze.

	22-11-2002 00:00									#26
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I've never seen citizens start complaining about "cruel oppression" when straving occurs in my games, even in the game that I was purposelessly not building the last space ship part and had the wonder that citizens grew by 2, which resulted in many citizens having a citizen strave.

Anyway, the draft doesn't cause "cruel oppression", it instead causes "Hell No! We Won't Go" complaints. And only 1 citizen per city can be drafted per turn under Democracy / Republic.

It's Communism that results in unmanagable cities, with pop-rushing + 2 citizens drafted per turn.

	22-11-2002 00:01									#27
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn If we capture the cities in good city positions instead of razing them, we won't need the settlers.

hi ,

, we should always have a couple on standby in the rear !

they shall be usefull if they join a captured city , this way there are some of our citizens there , and that makes it easier for us , .....

and if we decide to raze them , well then we can have a couple new ones there very fast , .....

have a nice day

	22-11-2002 00:11									#28
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It's more efficent to use workers to move citizens into existing cities. (Workers cost 10 gold for 1 citizen, Settlers cost 30 gold for 2 citizens)

	22-11-2002 00:15									#29
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn It's more efficent to use workers to move citizens into existing cities. (Workers cost 10 gold for 1 citizen, Settlers cost 30 gold for 2 citizens)

hi ,

thats true , we should have a stack of both , ....

have a nice day

	22-11-2002 00:49									#30
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quote: Originally posted by roadcage Sorry joncnunn, but starving ADDS to the 'cruel oppression' burden. It is simply best (and probably humane) to raze.

Razing a city is a complete waste of good slaves.