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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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Just played another game on Monarch level as Spain. However, I did something different this time... I set up the board with the set-up I suspect that our PTW demogame will have... (or at least close):
Standard Map
Random Barbarians
Random Landmass (or Continents)
Temperate Climate
Moderate Temperature
4 Billion Years Old
Civilizations:
I play Spain (us)
AI's:
Celts (GoW)
Ottomans (Lux Invicta)
Carthage (Legoland)
Iroqouis (placeholder for Gathering Storm)
Random AI
Random AI
Random AI
Other settings:
All normal victory conditions ON
Civ specific abilities ON
Culturally Linked starting locations OFF
All special PTW victory conditions OFF
Respawn AI civs OFF
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Game went quite well. I don't need to go into too many details, but I did get to watch one VERY FASCINATING thing take place.
The Iroquois (which were my placeholder for Gathering Storm) were by far the dominant civilization of much of the Ancient Age. They beat up first on the Celts, taking some of their land, backing them into a corner (I did the rest of the work of that just by building cities in the way) and then making peace with their tiny empire. Then the Iroquois went after the Ottomans and, while they had only limited success, did manage to prevent further Ottoman expansion (which kept the Ottomans small throughout the game).
The fascinating thing was watching HORDES of Iroquois mounted warriors go after Carthage. I was able to observe the individual battles of this conflict because the battleground was the all jungle, mountain, and river area that made up the middle of the map. I had a few cities in the area and units to let me view the parts of it which were in no-one's cultural radius.
I watched as stacks of Iroquois Mounted Warriors headed north toward Carthage and a few Numidian Mercs made their way south from Carthage in the other direction. I figured, for sure, that the small Carthaginian empire was doomed...
However, and this is what astonished me... the Carthaginians did lose 2 border cities to the Iroquois (which promptly flipped to me  ), but once able to switch their economy to building units were able to first repell and then REVERSE the assault. After a while, I was watching hordes of Numidian Mercenaries headed south from the small Carthaginian Empire toward the sizable Iroquois one rather than Mounted Warriors heading north.
By the end of the Ancient Age, small Carthage was the dominant military power on the board (with myself as Spain as a close second). Once the war was over, Carthage went back to building workers and city improvements and was able to maximize their small empire and stay ahead in the tech race while even I (given that this was playing against a bunch of AIs at Monarch level) wasn't always able to keep up.
The Middle Age was dominated by me (Spain) and England (on the other side of Carthage from everyone else), but also by Carthage. I got my Golden Age when I completed Adam Smith's Trading Company (I had already built the Sistine Chapel - my only other wonder at that point).
In the Industrial Age, Carthage was conquered by England while I conquered both the Celts and the Iroquois (which hadn't even gotten Astronomy and Chemistry yet!).
I won a diplomatic victory, but that's with AI's... England was really my only competition once Carthage, the Celts, and the Iroquois were out of the picture. Persia was the dominant lost civ (over the Arabs), but he couldn't keep up (and the Arabs were as far behind as the Iroquois - same traits...hmm...).
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CONCLUSION:
1. Carthage royally rocks the ancient age. Numidian Mercs are so effective only because they're combined with an Industrious/Commercial Civilization. A small Carthaginian empire can still pump the suckers out early-on and whip the a-- of a much larger empire just through the Numidian Mercs' superiority and the Carthaginians' productivity edge. This strategy I'd bet is most effective when Carthage plays more "perfectionist" than "expansionist".
2. Commercial civs, as I've noticed repeatedly since the patch that fixed the trait in normal Civ3, are typically the dominant civilizations. Industrious civs can sometimes be dominant as well. Commercial civ's superiority likely has to do with that powerful 25% reduction in corruption and those incremental boosts to income... it's a seemingly minor advantage that REALLY adds up over time.
3. Spain worked well because it has a cultural advantage (I was culture bombing both the Iroquois and the Carthaginians while they were busy building military units) at the same time as it has the long-term commercial advantage. The lack of the industrious trait makes them a pain to play if you're accustomed to having it, but their two traits are very powerful. Spain is better than India (of the same traits) only because you can use the Conquistadores to give yourself the properly timed Golden Age if you fail to build the right wonders.
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mrmitchell
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Argh...disconnected and I lost all my hard post-writing work...argh...
Anywayz, this is early Anceint Ages for my first game with Spam:
Found capital, another city, guess what? Spearman discovers Carthage, razes undefended Carth city, quick short war, I get all their techs out of the peace because I wiped out 1 of 2 cities, continue to found, build cities to block Carthage from India, India give me all techs  (must be fraid of my military) I keep going discovering, find out our continent is so far much like a string in the equator. Home cities prosper, border/frontier cities develop nicely, everything falling according to plan. 
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:23
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As a sidenote, I'm still waiting for the official word from the Builders. But I'm 99% sure we'll have Spain, so let's continue to practice and plan for it.
In my game with Spain where I had Zulus on one side and Germany on the other, my well-timed GA occured against the Zulus. Cut off their resources and luxuries, developed Mil. Theory during my GA war, and conquered their entire civ, taking two new luxuries (6 total), and lots of additional resources. The Indians bordered them and with a little bribe they occupied the Zulus but never conquered anything.
Germany has floudered without precious resources like coal and salt peter. India is my b*tch and chief purchaser of Spanish goods. My nation has become a commercial empire and should easily win the game as we make an obscene amount of money and have more research per turn than any other nation.
I will start a new game soon to practice with different conditions.
Notes:
Spain expanded very easily and quickly and was great in REX phase.
We survived some nasty early battles with the Zulu and Germans, but were not able to conquer either until our golden age and the march of the Conquistadors.
Conquistadors will frustrate our enemies worse than even a Tactical Nuke. I tore up my enemy's infrastructure and with a single RoP with a neighboring nation, I had virtually unlimited range to destroy their roads and cut off needed resources.
Wise human players will place guards on their resources. We may have to strike with multiple Conquistadors at key targets. Best targets are Repubic and Democratic civs, though. Warmongers will be able to beat their people into submission.
I cannot stress enough just how critical the Forbidden Palace was. My nation's economy soared once that thing was built. We were marginally better the rest of the time.
Our GA is excellently timed. I was four techs behind the rest of the world when I scratched my way to Navigation. At the end of my GA I was tied with the rest of the world after a little conquest and some wise tech exchanges. It also comes when we want to build some key wonders. I would suggest that we bee-line to Navigation to get the GA option as soon as possible.
Spain is a merchant civ. We need to branch out, build a mercant empire, and use our money/commercial benefits to our advantage.
--Togas
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Togas
Notes:
Spain expanded very easily and quickly and was great in REX phase.
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I have found this to be the case as well. However, when I've played the game specifically placing into it the civs that I believe the other teams will chose the high number of early UUs ("Gallic Swordsmen, Numidian Mercenaries, Mounted Warriors, oh my!"  ) makes building CITY WALLS in every single village an absolute necessity. City Walls are extremely cheap, so the expense is well worth it. The Cheap temples for the Spanish civ also makes a Temple+City Walls combo as the first construction in a new city quite reasonable on time to completion.
All things being said, however, Spain does expand very fast because of the standard units and Religious advantage. Having a militaristic trait would help for REX phase for the reasoning cited above, but we can easily do without it (especially since the commercial trait is so unbelievably powerful in the long-run).
quote:
Conquistadors will frustrate our enemies worse than even a Tactical Nuke. I tore up my enemy's infrastructure and with a single RoP with a neighboring nation, I had virtually unlimited range to destroy their roads and cut off needed resources.
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It let you do that under a RoP w/o declaring war? .... or did you pre-position your conquistadores before doing the first pillage? If it's the second one, I highly doubt a human player would let you get away with that...
quote:
Wise human players will place guards on their resources. We may have to strike with multiple Conquistadors at key targets. Best targets are Repubic and Democratic civs, though. Warmongers will be able to beat their people into submission.
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I've actually seen the AI do this when I was using conquistadores. The Germans fortified a pikemen on top of both of their iron tiles when I attacked them in one of my earlier games as Spain (I was using conquistadores for my attack almost exclusively - they're rather pricey for that...).
quote:
I cannot stress enough just how critical the Forbidden Palace was. My nation's economy soared once that thing was built. We were marginally better the rest of the time.
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Well, 25% reduction in corruption is pretty good and it does make the Forbidden Palace even that much more powerful (as there are far less cities stuck at 99% corruption).
quote:
Our GA is excellently timed. I was four techs behind the rest of the world when I scratched my way to Navigation. At the end of my GA I was tied with the rest of the world after a little conquest and some wise tech exchanges. It also comes when we want to build some key wonders. I would suggest that we bee-line to Navigation to get the GA option as soon as possible.
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I agree with bee-lining for Navigation. I've done that in every game as Spain so far... the Conquistadore is absolutely useless against musketmen. This makes the Spanish far less effective on higher difficulty levels (emperor and deity), I'd assume.
quote:
Spain is a merchant civ. We need to branch out, build a mercant empire, and use our money/commercial benefits to our advantage.
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This has been very much my overall impression from playing them. However, I almost ALWAYS like to play commercial civs (my fav civs are Rome, Greece, India, England from original Civ3... I really like Carthage and Spain from the new set... haven't really played Korea yet) For those of you unaccustomed to playing commercial civs all the time, I guess it's sorta novel to see that 25% reduction in corruption and those marginal increases in trade values... as I've been saying, "it adds up" 
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Arnelos
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of the Free World
Sep 2002
time: 00:23
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Oh, and something else about playing commercial civs... ALWAYS build marketplaces at the earliest available opporunity... the additional monetary advantage (it augments your slight monetary advantage and your advantage of extra trade due to reduced corruption) gives you a simply sickening edge in the late Ancient and early Middle ages.
(edited)
Last edited by Arnelos on 19-11-2002 at 14:20
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Togas
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California
Jun 2002
time: 21:23
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More thoughts on our Civ:
I continue to play new games of PTW with the Spanish.
The Celts didn't have any contact with me until the middle ages. When they declared war on my nation as a part of the Carthage-England-France coalition (Hannibal was the b*stard who brought them all together), they used their Redheaded Stepchildren who run around really fast but are pointless against knights and pikemen. They were easily killed, unlike the Numidian Mercs who were still annoying into the middle ages.
I built 1 Conquistador, killed a wounded knight, and never lost the guy. Entered my GA, bought off two of my enemies then beat down the other two. Once Spain enters GA, getting to Military Tradition is only a few turns away, you then have the cash to instantly upgrade all of your knights, and my civ never looked back. We ended the massive war on our terms getting everything we wanted (including Democracy) and after GA, switched to Demo and then had the game wrapped up.
Of note: I finally saw those Ottoman Siphani horseman in action vs. the English (for some strange reason, Osman was my best friend and trading partner throughout the game) a few years after my GA ended. Those units are amazingly potent, giving the Ottomans a very good GA and allowing them to conquer large areas of land in record time.
Carthage was the top civ most of the game and the leading political wrangler but once I bought off the Arabs, the pieces crumbled around them. The Arabs bought off the Koreans. Later the opportunistic Celts got involved. When the Turks decided to join, Carthage was done. ANY civ, no matter how powerful, rich, and influential can be destroyed by cooperation of the other civs. We should always use heavy diplomacy to weaken and destroy signifigant threats to our nation. The price is always, in my experience, worth it.
--Togas
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History Guy
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Reads too many books...
Oct 2001
time: 23:23
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Dear me. Well, only being a simple squid salesman myself with a taste for tacos, and squid, and enchiladas, and squid, I am perhaps unsuitable for making comments like this, but I shall anyway.
It seems that until we have actually started the game and encountered the Ottoman civilization first hand, it would be too premature to make these sorts of speculations, but all the same, it is helpful. For all we know, Osman might find himself in the middle of a small island, with no resources at all, but we never know. What is certain is this: the Ottoman and Celtic civilizations will always be problems for us if we find ourselves near them. They are both warmongered, the former more refined, but the latter is mad with the love of warfare. The latter fear neither fire nor iron, and they are fast as the wind. Before we could cry "Santiago", ranks of their men could be upon us. And so, it is our duty, for the good of our people (and our squids) to, if possible, isolate and contain the warmongering Celts, as well as the Ottomans. The Ottomans at first shall not prove as much of a danger, but we know that one day they may well be unstoppable (we know this from our oracles, right?), and so we must destroy, or incapitate them beyond repair before we get into the period which our seers call 'the Industrial Age'. I prefer, for my imperialist tastes, that we annex them early on if we are in a position to. If we cannot, we must pay someone else to do so. Preferably a mysterious civilization that cries out for venegeance against an Ottoman leader by the name of Trip. All of know of this civilization is that their leader is called the Tiger King. This hatred might come in useful. As for the Celts, I feel roughly the same, though the threat is more immediate. As soon as possible, these mad peoples must be extinguished.
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Nuclear Winter
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quote:
Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt
1. Deny LI Horses and/or Iron: particularly important as they are about to get Milit Trad. We can't be too lax about this, as you can bet your cotton socks they will upgrade instantly if they fear losing hese resources, and if they didn't have them they wilkl do whatever necessary to get them, ast the expense of cahs, cities, reps and probably even MPPs and alliances.
2. Somehow become so powerful by then that their UU is not a threat
3. Deny LI Milit Trad until we have reached something even better (Tanks?)
4. Eliminate LI before Milit trad.
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1- This might be a possibility, but they are most likely to try and secure those at an early stage, at least horses. Also, as I think they won´t be giving us their map, we have almost no means to discover where they have ´em.
2 - Hardly possible, as they are surely going to lead the tech research.
3 - They´ll go straight for it. Hardly possible, IMHO.
4 - Possible,(and might I add, tempting , however, might only work in a worldly coalision against them; might be impossible to beat them single handed.
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17-11-2002 08:12
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