17-11-2002 09:31									#1
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I've been playing civ3 and hanging around this forum since late August. You guys have speeded up the learning curve dramatically. I really appreciate all the work you put into helping the new players too.

I have played my last few games on Monarch and haven't had too much trouble, and in light of Theseus' 7 pillars thread, i figure it's time to ask about bombardment. I really have not built many bombard units, i guess because i haven't needed them. I know that i will have to, especially at Emperor and Diety. (nods to Theseus' AU game with the Stack of Doom)

So, when do you start building bombard units? At catapults, or do you wait? Are they worth it? For offense and defense? I would hate to think that the best approach is the MA rush over to the other continent.
(Assume standard everything and continents)

anyone with anything, thanks in advance.

	17-11-2002 10:49									#2
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There is only one time period where mass bombard units are worth it: between Replaceable Parts and Motorized Transport.

This is mainly because artillery is the only offensive bombard unit. I might stick a catapult or cannon in a city for defense, but they are too slow to use on offense. Radar artillery comes after the game has ended.

The MA rush, tank vs. infantry rush, cav vs. rifleman rush, and knight vs. pikeman rush all work better than a slow arty march. The only exception would be if you don't have the production power to replace your fast unit losses and are in a government that can afford a long, drawn-out war.

	17-11-2002 12:55									#3
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I don't know whether I qualify as a "big boy" or not, but I'm a deity pplayer. I start with catapults if I am one of the following civs:

Persia
Rome
Carthage
Greece
Babylon
Korea

All of those but Korea have early 1 move UUs that I use instead of horsemen. To support the UUs, I'll use catapults. None of them can retreat, so it is a good idea to soften enemy spearmen to keep them alive. In the case of Korea, it is fun to stash hordes of bombard units so that you can do a mass upgrade to Hwachas and kick everyone's ass. A lost HP is almost garaunteed with a Hwacha.

Otherwise, I tend to wait until cannons to build artillery, and I don't use them. They're just upgradeable to artillery, which is essential. So I stick them in a barracks city and wait to discover Replaceable Parts. (The Artillery unit is the only overpowered bombard unit, so you want to have a lot of them quickly.)

In the endgame, RA are extremely useful for defense, but not at all for offense. Stealth Bombers are able to keep up with a MA blitz, Radar Artillery are not. However, in a land war, the AI will frequently send huge stacks of mech infantry into your territory, and by hitting one of these stacks repeatedly with RA, you can make it a whole lot easier to kill.

	17-11-2002 20:38									#4
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See defensive agression thread for an early use of catapults. But realistically, their best feature is upgrading to Artillery.

	17-11-2002 21:42									#5
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JW: Of course you count. This is exactly what I'm looking for. I want to get everyone's input on the benefits of artillery. Also, what type of game do you play (when are you peaceful, when do you fight)? Do you finish games with SS or Diplo, or the military victories? I will try this approach when I hit the other continent in my current game.

Dave: I have found the rushes to be very successful, but I always have had the production power, not to mention the wonders that I deem are key. I'm a little worried as to how much harder it is to run over the opponents at Emperor and Diety due to their bonus.

Roadcage: Thanks. I'll look at it for the early game.

Like I said, I've been hanging around here for a little bit, and I play the game VERY similar to Arrian. 21-tile spacing, early war, mass upgrades, building every improvement, need the medievil wonders..... Any input from anyone who knows how these games develop would be especially helpful. Thanks

	17-11-2002 22:27									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior I start with catapults if I am one of the following civs: Persia Rome Carthage Greece Babylon Korea All of those but Korea have early 1 move UUs that I use instead of horsemen. To support the UUs, I'll use catapults. None of them can retreat, so it is a good idea to soften enemy spearmen to keep them alive.

Do you really? I find that if a civ doesn't have a move-2 UU, I build just enough UU to trigger a golden age when I want it, and otherwise use horsemen.

Greece and Carthage are the exception, because the Hoplite and the Numidean Merc are defensive units I place in cities. Hoewever, you said you use catapults to support these UU in an offensive role, which doesn't make sense to me - do you use a Swordsman / Hoplite / Catapult mix when playing as Greece?

As an aside, I find the 2 point attack of the Numidean Merc to be useless. Using them that way makes them into expensive archers, dangerous unless the target is defense 1 and has just 1 or 2 HP each. They're still useful, since they're effectively early Pikemen, but inferior to the Hoplite because they cost 50% more for that useless extra point of attack.

Come to think of it, using catapults to support Babylonian Bowmen doesn't make sense either. Catapults require mathematics, and by the time you have a meaningful number of them, you've got swordsmen which are superior to Bowmen.

To address the original post, the golden age of bombardment is between the period when your enemies get Infantry and the point when you get Tanks. Taking infantry with Cavalry is prohibitively expensive unless you knock them down to 1 HP each with artillery, and artillery is the first bombard unit that has a decent attack, and of course range.

I've expermented with using artillery or bombers to make an Tank or Modern Armor attack less expensive, and my assessment is that it's nice, but not something worth doing deliberately. You're usually better off building more Tanks or MA than a bombard unit.

If the target is exactly 3 spaces into enemy territory and you're using Tanks, it does make sense to move Artillery in you built in the previous age. The Tanks won't reach the target this turn, and the artillery will be in range next turn when they do.

In theory, you could get a short period where you had Tanks and the target had Mech Infantry, which would require bombardment again, since MI require 1 tech (Computers) and Modern Armor 3 (Rockets, Ecology, Synthetic Fibers). In practice I've never seen it happen.

- Gus

	17-11-2002 22:35									#7
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I agree with most here. Artillery is really the only bombard unit worth building, except for bombers later. I use it for softening cities before attack, wearing down enemy "stacks of doom", damaging bombarding enemy ships so that they turn for home. I quite often use them even after appearance of tanks, but combine with bombers. I play on emperor and monarch.

	17-11-2002 22:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by GusSmed Greece and Carthage are the exception, because the Hoplite and the Numidean Merc are defensive units I place in cities. Hoewever, you said you use catapults to support these UU in an offensive role, which doesn't make sense to me - do you use a Swordsman / Hoplite / Catapult mix when playing as Greece?

Yes. Zero casualties from archer counterattacks.

quote: As an aside, I find the 2 point attack of the Numidean Merc to be useless. Using them that way makes them into expensive archers, dangerous unless the target is defense 1 and has just 1 or 2 HP each. They're still useful, since they're effectively early Pikemen, but inferior to the Hoplite because they cost 50% more for that useless extra point of attack.

Have you ever done an attack where you've killed the three spearmen and there's just some puny little guy holding the city, but you don't have anyone to attack it with? And you know that next turn he's gonna pop-rush a new spearman and you will have to attack it with a wounded swordsman? That's when you use the Numidian Mercenary. Fortunately, the one unit you manage to take the city with can defend at three.

quote: Come to think of it, using catapults to support Babylonian Bowmen doesn't make sense either. Catapults require mathematics, and by the time you have a meaningful number of them, you've got swordsmen which are superior to Bowmen.

Sword/Bowman/Catapult mix. The catapults bombard, then the swordsmen go for the non-wounded spearmen, and the bowmen take down the injured spearmen, archers, and warriors. Then the bowmen can defend.

quote: I've expermented with using artillery or bombers to make an Tank or Modern Armor attack less expensive, and my assessment is that it's nice, but not something worth doing deliberately. You're usually better off building more Tanks or MA than a bombard unit.

It actually pays to build bombers to support MA for a different reason. It doesn't lower casualties enough that it is less expensive, but think about it this way...
A small number of well-cared for units with blitz can easily work their ways up the experience levels quickly. Because they rarely get lost, it is quite easy to get a great leader. If you had large numbers of MA that got killed more often, many would not ever get to be elite, much less produce a GL.

Thats all for now.

	18-11-2002 01:45									#9
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There are two major considerations regarding bombarding a metropolis/city in the industrial/modern age:

1. Friendly casualties (dem/rep government, or attacking on a shoestring). If avoiding casualties is a major concern, then wait for bombardment support. Make sure to have the workers available to build road/rail to speed things along, as appropriate. Use your spy to Investigate City to determine the defense and keep track as you bombard them down.

2. Is the city to be taken or razed? If it is to be taken, then you may want to avoid bombardment to avoid risking destruction of the harbor or markeplace (again, Investigate City to confirm there IS a marketplace). A city in WLTKD is much less likely to culture flip on you, while if in disorder it is more likely to flip. If you have Cruise Missiles, then they can be used safely as they only target military units, not civvies or improvements.

	18-11-2002 01:57									#10
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Jaybe: I forgot about casualties and war weariness. I see the use there. In all of my games, I don't think that I have ever had less culture than an opponent, and also no captured cities have flipped back to them.

Olaf: Thanks. Is this the general concensus among everyone?

Also, how do others compare to the AI culturally. Less, even, 2x.... What is optimal? (If you are not intending to win that way?)

Thanks

	18-11-2002 03:06									#11
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All you really need is equal culture. That makes flips in captured cities rare, especially if you starve them down to 1 pop immediately.

Up to Monarch you should be able to get equal culture by building normally. On Emperor a very early temple helps. On Diety you try to hit a couple civs before they start building temples, because after that you have to raze everything until you catch up.

	18-11-2002 03:52									#12
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I forgot a few things:

Cruise missiles are cheap, powerful and only hit the enemy military units. Perfect for bombarding enemy cities before you capture them. There is a bug that stops you from loading them onto transports in cities, but you can pass that bug by loading them from the shore.

My use of bombardment is not completely the general consencus, but I think quite a few play like me. Some people actually build catapults and find them useful as you can read here. But I think you need lots of them to get any effect, which could be too expensive in the ancient age.

Others don't build modern bombardment units at all, but focus totally on getting as many tanks as possible. There are many ways to win.

	18-11-2002 04:15									#13
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Arty threads typically break down because there is a strong "I don't need arty" bias among the big boys. Don't get too cocky. Arty are very valuable for us mere mortals.

In games where you have had problems and are not overrunning the world with cavs, then arty are the best defensive units after RR. You can wheel up a stack of 40 arty to any spot in your civ and fire in just one turn. This power makes you virtually invulnerable to any AI attack.

BTW -- see Moonsinger's arty thread over on fanatics forum for state of the art usage of arty on offense in the modern era. In a recent game, I had the opportunity to use settlers to extend a blitz by putting arty in position to bombard as she illustrates on that thread. They are a great can opener when used correctly.

I'm beginning to think there is a female bias in favor of arty. They will probably teach us a lesson on PTW.

	18-11-2002 12:20									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior It actually pays to build bombers to support MA for a different reason. It doesn't lower casualties enough that it is less expensive, but think about it this way... A small number of well-cared for units with blitz can easily work their ways up the experience levels quickly. Because they rarely get lost, it is quite easy to get a great leader. If you had large numbers of MA that got killed more often, many would not ever get to be elite, much less produce a GL.

I'm aware of this effect, and I've mentioned the increase of experience for individual units leading to more Great Leaders in other threads.

However, it's my experience that both tanks and MA, both being Blitz units, are ridiculously easy to get to up to Elite levels even without bombardment. Any unit that participates in a combat twice or more in one turn gets an automatic promotion for the second and later combats, provided it wins. Until Blitz units, you only see this on defense. Tanks and MA get it on attack.

For example, if the tank / MA doesn't take more than 1 HP or so damage in the first attack, hold the second attack until there's a weak target (and there often is) like a Cavalry or Longbow, or a severely damaged infantry, and and poof, it's Elite.

Yes, I know, this happens more often with bombers than without, but it's not that important an effect because Elite is so easy to get. Also, by the time you have Modern Armor, you don't need any more Great Leaders - you've built the UN, no other wonders matter, and few free Armies aren't that great a reward.

I've run MA assaults both with and without bomber support, and my feeling is that I've done better when I've just concentrated on cranking out the MA. It's hard to say, though, since by the time MA rolls around, I have an overwhelming production and tech edge. It's just a matter of which method finishes the game faster.

Typically, the game is still in doubt when it's Knights vs. Musketmen. Sometimes it drags out to the Infantry / Cavalry / Artillery period, when you as a player can torch heavily defended cities with this combination, and the AI is throwing away dozens of Cavalry against a couple of fortified Infantry when it tries to take a city.

- Gus

	18-11-2002 12:22									#15
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On emperor, I don't use artilery of any kind, if I capture one , I will disband it, in the nearest city.
Not that there not usefull, just feels like an exploit.

On deity I will use it alot. But then again, on deity, I need as much help as I can get

quote: In games where you have had problems and are not overrunning the world with cavs, then arty are the best defensive units after RR. You can wheel up a stack of 40 arty to any spot in your civ and fire in just one turn. This power makes you virtually invulnerable to any AI attack.

So very true

	18-11-2002 13:07									#16
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr ... I'm beginning to think there is a female bias in favor of arty. They will probably teach us a lesson on PTW.

Don't call me a lady!

	18-11-2002 14:09									#17
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Now, Arty can be good for defense too.

If enemy has some stack of doom (20-50 units), and especily if those units are something like Infantry.

Then you just bombard and bombard and bombard and bombard and bombard and bombard and bombard, and after that you'll seee a lot of 1hp units.

Then take them out with some of your units without casualties.




P.S.
On the other hand, with new PtW add-ons Arty could get more use.

Since Radar Tower gives extra +25% defense and Civild Defense extra 50% defense (for a total of extra +75%).

A lot of extra defense against Tanks.

	18-11-2002 14:25									#18
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Dave: Thanks. I am wondering if I produce too much culture (on Monarch) and ignoring other important aspects. I am always almost 2x ahead, even on the not so great maps.

Olaf: Appreciate the advice on the cruise missiles. My impression is that catapults just aren't worth the upkeep either.

quote: Don't call me a lady!

And to think, I was going to ask you if you would be in the U.S. anytime soon.

jshelr: I saw Moonsinger's thread. Good stuff. I just have yet to run across a situation where that much coordination is necessary to get a jump. I'll keep it in the back of my head, though.

quote: In games where you have had problems and are not overrunning the world with cavs, then arty are the best defensive units after RR. You can wheel up a stack of 40 arty to any spot in your civ and fire in just one turn. This power makes you virtually invulnerable to any AI attack.

A question with this. What do your homeland defenses look like at end of the game? What per city? Do you ignore your inland cities? I know that this is different against humans, but assume all opponents are AI. Railroads allow you to decrease the number of Mech Infantry needed for defense, but if you have Arty too, does it make sense to "defend" with MA. Assume you're in a representative govt.

Gus: I understand where you are coming from, but leaders can be used on completion of SS if you hit some bad luck. I agree though that late leaders are not anywhere near as powerful as Ancient and Medievil ones.

Alva: Yet to play Emperor or Diety, but feel like I am ready to try it. Will probably pick it up after this thread. Thanks.

Keep it coming guys, and girls..... I want to be able to contribute to more of your threads, eventually.

	18-11-2002 15:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by BRC ... Olaf: Appreciate the advice on the cruise missiles. My impression is that catapults just aren't worth the upkeep either. And to think, I was going to ask you if you would be in the U.S. anytime soon. ...

I am not sure if I understand what you mean. Last time was about a year ago, but I have currently no trip planned. Perhaps I will visit a conference in New Orleans in October 2003. Why?

	18-11-2002 18:22									#20
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"A question with this. What do your homeland defenses look like at end of the game? What per city? Do you ignore your inland cities? I know that this is different against humans, but assume all opponents are AI. Railroads allow you to decrease the number of Mech Infantry needed for defense, but if you have Arty too, does it make sense to "defend" with MA. Assume you're in a representative govt."

Railroads take the geography out of defense. I keep defensive units stacked in cities that can be surprise-attacked and in coastal cities in case marines show up. Otherwise, as a practical matter, it simply doesn't matter where the units are. This is actually sloppy thinking since you ought to do everything possible to make yourself blitz-proof. But the AI has not blitzed me and I've lost my edge of worry about it.

Inland cities hold whatever tank/MA stacks they have built since I'm too lazy to move them until necessary. However, good housekeeping requires that you put all your arty in one stack whenever possible or movement/firing gets a bit complicated and you may lose bombardment turns. (If you were really worried about surprise attacks, you should use the arty to prevent that as well. But, again, I just opt for convenience.) The build list gets exhausted late in the game and you can sometimes find yourself with silly numbers of units without real planning.

	18-11-2002 19:07									#21
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I will use artillery, I just rarely build it. I almost always end up capturing about 5 catapults from the AI, and I will hold on to those, and upgrade them.

I'm a fastmover user, so I typically don't find that catapults (or even arty) are particularly useful on offense (though what Jag Warrior does makes total sense). I will bring them along and use them to thwart counterattacks. Knocking a counterattacking AI unit to the red and then hitting with an elite unit is a good combo: the chances of you losing that elite unit to a bad RNG roll are very low.

Late in the game I will probably build some more arty, along with capturing some more bombard units from the AI (usually cannon). I seem to end up with 15-20 arty by the endgame.

Artillery are solid units, and are very useful if you want to break a certain road, soften up incoming attackers, damage AI ships, or - if you must - fight in the period between infantry and tanks.

-Arrian

	18-11-2002 19:50									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian ... Knocking a counterattacking AI unit to the red and then hitting with an elite unit is a good combo: the chances of you losing that elite unit to a bad RNG roll are very low. ... -Arrian

Using the stack of doom for "target practice" is also useful to train your units before you send them into enemy territory, so they are all elite. I did that in one of the mini-tournaments.

Lock the stack in, preferably by putting infantry on high ground all around it, but try to keep one tile open. They will try to move the wounded units home through the open tile. Those poor, crippled guys will be sitting ducks.

	19-11-2002 01:22									#23
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quote: I am not sure if I understand what you mean. Last time was about a year ago, but I have currently no trip planned. Perhaps I will visit a conference in New Orleans in October 2003. Why?

Sorry Olaf. Just a joke in reply to your "I'm not a lady!" remark.


I am usually at war. Not to exterminate anyone else usually, but to generate Leaders. I like to send well defended groups of elites into enemy territory and fight until a leader emerges. Stacks of Musketmen and Elite Knights and Elite Swordsmen as an example. Does anyone else do this? Do you bring along cannons? Even with Infantry and Cavalry, as Leaders are useful for TOE, Hoover, and Suffrage. Thanks

	22-11-2002 08:32									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior In the case of Korea, it is fun to stash hordes of bombard units so that you can do a mass upgrade to Hwachas and kick everyone's ass. A lost HP is almost garaunteed with a Hwacha.

You know, I hate it when someone talks about a theoretical strategy that they've never tried as if they've pulled it off several times.

I played my first game as Korea tonight, and lo and behold, you can't upgrade Catapults to H'wacha.

H'wacha are awful. Not only are they a poor alternative to massed Cavalry, they don't trigger a Golden Age. Which means as Korea, you're stuck hoping to build the right wonders to get a Golden Age, which is largely a matter of luck if you're playing on Deity.

- Gus

	22-11-2002 14:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by GusSmed I played my first game as Korea tonight, and lo and behold, you can't upgrade Catapults to H'wacha.

That bug, which is reported and will be corrected.

By the way, 2Hwatcha == cost of one Arty.

Bombard effectiveness of 2Hwatcha == 1 Arty.

Only bad thing: range of 1.

So for defenseive purposed you get Arty much earlier then anybody else.

Of course, probelm with Atry is that it's not too much usefll if enemy has not Infantry (Cabalry are enought then).

	25-11-2002 05:19									#26
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In my current debacle (being slowly crushed), surgical use of artillery allows me to knock attacking unescorted tanks to 1HP, after which I finish them off with cavalry/guerillas.*

I never thought I would get such entertainment from losing a game!

*Guerillas modded to 2MP, all terrain 1MP.

	25-11-2002 14:02									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe *Guerillas modded to 2MP, all terrain 1MP.

So why are you using Cavalry at all.
Your guerrilas are both mobile (and even more in hills and Mountains) and have good defense.
Much better thing then Cavalry.

	25-11-2002 23:01									#28
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quote: Originally posted by player1 So why are you using Cavalry at all. ...

Yes, it does make cavalry useful only in situations they can get in and back out of. Haven't built cavalry for quite some time.
My guerillas (partisans) are becoming more and more necessary as bombers and battleships are destroying my communications and infrastructure.

	28-11-2002 07:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior Have you ever done an attack where you've killed the three spearmen and there's just some puny little guy holding the city, but you don't have anyone to attack it with? And you know that next turn he's gonna pop-rush a new spearman and you will have to attack it with a wounded swordsman? That's when you use the Numidian Mercenary. Fortunately, the one unit you manage to take the city with can defend at three.

All too familiar....

[quote]