18-11-2002 03:35									#1
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I am quite sure that if we are stuck near any other team except the Role Players we will get rushed. How should we defend against the rush, will the Numidian Inf. be useful, how may the rush hinder fast expansion? Ideas?

	18-11-2002 10:18									#2
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If we are next to anything except roleplayers (and maybe Trip's team to some extent, which could choose another target than us), diplomacy will be the key. We have to explore the world very quickly to know other teams and forge alliances as soon as needed.
Our workers should mine 1-2 tiles next to each city so that the cost of the numidian merc. isn't too much of an issue. If we can produce Numidian mercs quickly enough, we don't have to fear rushes, and can even think of counterattacking.
Indeed, the 3 defense is an impressive bonus so early, and the enemies wouldn't risk to give us a golden age if we have the productive capabilities of making many of them.

	18-11-2002 13:48									#3
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I'm not so sure we will get rushed too early. The other Human players are just as likely to be wary of us as we are of them. We certainly will have time to build a reasonable defence. Probably the most important thing we have is information. They probably won't attack unless they think they have a good chance of winning. What we have to do is make them believe that our cities are well defended, even if they aren't. Its also important that our tactics and strategies stay here and go no further but sure we all knew that anyway

	21-11-2002 04:43									#4
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I've changed my mind. It seems obvious other teams will want to attack us first, as they'll think of us as an easy target. Barracks should be a top priority as soon as possible, and numidian mercs will be a great strategic asset. We'll have to build archers/swordsmen to counterattack, and let the world know we aren't pushovers. To stop a bloodthirsty team to attack us, we have to prune them, and to prove them we are not a punching ball.

I think we should concentrate on building only the essential buildings in the early game, and save the more useless buildings (marketplace mostly, but also library to some extent) to a later time, when we have proven to the others we're strong enough not to be messed with.

	21-11-2002 11:55									#5
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I think it is highly possible that some enemys could try an early rush, especially because we are builders ("Attack them, they must be weak !").

The most dangerous is the very beginning, because we get the numidians only with Bronze Working (which should be the first researched tech, btw) and until we research it a militaristic civ could try to flood us with warriors or archers. Very dangerous moment.

Once we have barracks (high priority buildings, if not in every cities) and mercenaries, the situation will improve. It depends very much on the terrain, too.

	21-11-2002 14:20									#6
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I'm not convinced that we are going to be 'rushed'. The other players know that we are going to be building Numidian Mercs to defend ourselves and this is what will put them off. Any sort of offensive force that someone can build early on may be able to overwhelm spearmen but not Mercs. Plus it would leave themselves open to counter attack, an avenue wich we will not hasten to pursue

	21-11-2002 14:43									#7
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If they get to us with 5/6 veteran warriors and we still don't have bronze, we won't be able to defend, period. What size is the map? Maybe trying not to make contact at the beginning and avoiding being detected and identified as first target makes sense. Being second target is not so much of an issue because by then we will have the numidians.

	21-11-2002 14:50									#8
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I think its unlikely that they can build a Barracks and 5/6 warriors and happen to stumble across us before we have bronze working. Start a game, even on Cheftain level and a tiny map and see if you can get a force together quick enough.

The other teams are going to be as wary of us as we are of them. Most of them don't beleive that we are just going to sit back and blissfully build roads. When we do get attacked (not if) it will be tactical and well thought out. Certainly after maps have been traded and they know where our strong cities lie.

	21-11-2002 19:03									#9
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I destroyed once the indians with warriors from my first city. I didn't build my second city while they were still alive. They didn't have the time to research and build spearmen (on monarch, btw).

Edited: ...and this was on my first (and last) game that I played as a warmongerer. Believe me, if we start near the warmongerers, they will rush us.

	21-11-2002 19:24									#10
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quote: Originally posted by aliatar Maybe trying not to make contact at the beginning and avoiding being detected and identified as first target makes sense.

This would be normally a sound strategy, but we want to REXing, so we will meet others quickly, no doubt about it. Especially if one of the teams choose to be expansionistic. Do we know anything about this?

	21-11-2002 20:13									#11
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Fair enough, congratulations are in order ITs something I've never done or seen happen but I would think its a likely occurance.

I'm still not convinced about an immediate threat though but I agree that we should prepare for eearly conflict. Certainly theres going to be no harm in having a few handy units going spare.

	22-11-2002 05:01									#12
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What I'm worried about is an archer rush before we get enough Numidian Mercs.

	22-11-2002 07:39									#13
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I am probably stating the obvious but cities on hills will help as long as we aren't cutting ourselves short on good terrain and resources.

Might be an idea to build walls in key strategic cities (and near the warmonger civs) as long as those cities aren't on rivers or near fresh lakes..

Yeah, I know walls are unfortunately near useless in Civ 3, but they might stop even an immortal rush, especially if we are playing as Carthage.

	22-11-2002 11:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Odin What I'm worried about is an archer rush before we get enough Numidian Mercs.

Odin you're right. I've realized only now that militaristic civs start with the warrior code, thus archers.

I must apologize, I exxagerated my performance earlier. I was playing with the Chinese, I was militaristic so I had Warrior Code. It was an "archer rush" not a "warrior rush". Sorry. (It was some time ago and since I'm not doing this normally, I didn't remember it exactly)

Anyway, even if we won't be rushed, it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

	22-11-2002 13:32									#15
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I think that unless we literally start on top of one of the war-monger civs (like within 15-20 squares, which can happen) we should be able to get Mercs before they can mount a full-on rush. However, if we do start right on top of one another, we're going to have to come up with some quick defensive strategies.

	22-11-2002 18:46									#16
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In the SP DemoGame, we needed about 60 turns before our archers marched on Washington. The other teams will want to attack either with more units (letting us more time to prepare numidians), or less units (giving us a chance to win with our warriors).
Don't forget they have to discover us to attack. If we use most of our warriors to defend our cities rather than scouting, they are less likely to stumble on one, and guess where we come from. It'll also buy us time if we can't produce enough Numidians.

	22-11-2002 21:30									#17
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We definitely must be of the mind set that a rush will happen. Everything we can do to prepare an impressive defense and counter-stirke ability will serve our immediate needs and will send a long term message.

If a rush does not happen....we will still be in good shape.

1. Get numidians ASAP
2. Limit our scouting...nothing worse than being attached when my warrior/scout can only watch.
3. Use terrain to our advantage, where feasible. Build on a hill surrounded be grasslands.
4. Build barrack before numidians.

	23-11-2002 15:57									#18
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I've just seen the GS's member list: Theseus, Arrian, dominae, ... If they start near us they will rush us, I guarantee.

I'll quote Theseus from an older thread about rush:

quote: And the second best way... destroy them before they have the capability to attack you. I just did that to Rome, in a similar situation. Made them respawn in a vast jungle

quote: My friend, you need... the Warrior Rush. Just trim Hammie a little bit, here and there, and your problems will be over. I wouldn;t even go after towns; just get a couple of Warrior pairs nearby VERY early, and watch for Settler-Warrior pairs.

quote: Gotta get to them first... at all costs. If playing Egypt, for instance, with cultural linking on, I'll not build any twons beyond Thebes, and just go all Warrior, all the time, until I know I've got Caesar in hand.

quote: If nearby, Romans, Persians, and Iroquois need to be trimmed

	27-11-2002 12:28									#19
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I tend to agree with that we will be rushed if starting close to a warmongerish tribe (if for nothing else then just to be shown that rushing works...).

However, attackers will be risking a lot. If we defend ourselves successfully, they will become very vulnerable and I am sure they will realize that. Thinking of the warrior, warrior, warrior, settler, merc build order we have unofficially agreed on, I would send the first warrior straight away, trying to find/contact other civs, kept the second one circling around the capital, mapping the vicinity of our first city, looking for suitable places to expand to, and fortified the last one inside the capital. This way, we should always have at least two warriors ready for defense. That should be enough to stop a single archer trying to harass us. We would have to be seriously unlucky to get attacked by more than one or two archers before we get to BW and mercs. If there is an enemy unit approaching, we might build one more warrior, sending it to search for where the invader came from. Just pushing our lone warrior around their capital should make them think more of defense and less of rushing.

	27-11-2002 18:01									#20
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Yeah, I think it's a sound plan. Anyway, we will know more about this after the early turns. Let wait for now and see who our neighbors will be and then act accordingly.

	28-11-2002 04:47									#21
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Actually, I think a good defense against a rush is to not be found too early; thus, I think we should devote our first warrior to mapping a ring around our capital (to search for city sites) and send the second one out searching wider.

	28-11-2002 05:07									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Actually, I think a good defense against a rush is to not be found too early; thus, I think we should devote our first warrior to mapping a ring around our capital (to search for city sites) and send the second one out searching wider.

You do have a point. However, applied upside down, the best way to keep someone at bay is to find him first - the very moment your rival realizes you know where to strike at, he must strenghten his defenses. Circling around the capital, we give up on the possibility of locating someone else and accept the fact that WE will be found out.

As far as looking for city sites goes, there will be plenty of time - while building the third warrior and then the settler, the second warrior will have time enough to find a good spot.

Also, actually making a contact with another civ or two may result in learning a new technology that will make our building options after the settler (and possibly the merc) richer. By sticking to Legopolis, we would be passively waiting for others to come to us.

Another thought: the farther away our first warrior gets, the better - during the initial period of the game, most of the territory will be neutral, thus easily tresspassable. With territorial borders expanding, we may later have troubles establishing contacts with faraway civs.

OTOH, if someone else gets to our capital until the second warrior is built, then we are toast (applies vice versa, too - if we get lucky and find someone else's capital early enough, we can either toast him or make sure that they do keep in mind we let them stay in the game). Actually, will respawning be on? Can a human team respawn?

I am not pushing this, just putting thoughts together... feel free to argue, I hope nobody will take discussions here personally.

	28-11-2002 07:34									#23
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Good arguments. You've convinced me. Not having a capital defense is bad, but it would probably be just as bad with the warrior circling around it.

It's a risk we'll have to take.

	28-11-2002 10:54									#24
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Another thing to consider for later turns is that the Numidian Mercs are good offensive units. I've trying some early game tactics and the Mercs are doing great until Pikemen and Knights.

	28-11-2002 11:05									#25
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Yeah, 2 attack will be nice in some situations. Though if it's a large attack, I'd rather have archers guarded by a few Mercs.

	28-11-2002 11:30									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Though if it's a large attack, I'd rather have archers guarded by a few Mercs.

I wanted to say the same thing. Num.merc. have the same attack as archers but are much more expensive. So an attack force should be formed of a few Merc. (for defense and eventually a last push in attack) plus archers as the basic attack force.

	28-11-2002 18:30									#27
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I agree that Mercs should be used offensively only when really necessary (finishing badly wounded enemy units, for last ditch fighting and such). Let's use them defensively whenever possible. Their defense of three is at least 3.3 anywhere and rises even higher when fortified and/or stationed on a well-defendable terrain. Having the (relatively) cheap archers carry attacks and protecting the victorious survivors with full-health mercs sounds like a very good idea.

But it certainly does not hurt that the Mercs can attack just as well as archers.

	28-11-2002 20:51									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Not having a capital defense is bad, but it would probably be just as bad with the warrior circling around it. It's a risk we'll have to take.

Boldface added.

I would not be able to put it better. That's exactly how I feel about it... sending the first warrior straight away is nothing that would conform to "playing it safe", which is what I usually go for (and, to be honest, I seldom do that in my SP games). But I fear it will be necessary to remain competitive.