18-11-2002 13:52									#1
	Dutch UU? Inflate your Upload Space

Anyone?

The best that I can come up with is the "Sea Beggar", which was mentioned in passing as being integral to the success of their revolt against the Spanish garrisons in the area. They were somehow affiliated with William the Silent, leader of the revolt (and future stadtholder of the new "United Provinces") and attacked from the sea, overwhelming towns by surprise.

They would replace Musketmen, require Saltpeter, cost 9 shields, and be amphibious at 4/3/1.

Can anyone familiar with the term or Dutch history clue me in here? Most of the websites regarding "sea beggar"'s revolve around a Doctor Who episode by the same name, and the term is not apparently directly translatable (zeeschooier is the best I could come up with).

	18-11-2002 18:54									#2
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isn't that just like the french muskateer but with amphibious? bit unfair on the french isn't it?

	19-11-2002 03:51									#3
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Perhaps a naval unit?
The Dutch Golden Age was based on trade by sea after all, a stronger/cheaper Privateer maybe? Eliminate the other seafarers, but remain on good terms with them.

	19-11-2002 12:06									#4
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quote: isn't that just like the french muskateer but with amphibious? bit unfair on the french isn't it?

Well, Musketeers are 3/4/1, and cost a shield less, and the "Sea Beggar" is keyed to be used as an offensive unit, as opposed to the Musketeer's defensive role, but yeah.

Then again, there's not that big of a difference between the three units which replace the Knight, either. *shrugs*

quote: The Dutch Golden Age was based on trade by sea after all, a stronger/cheaper Privateer maybe? Eliminate the other seafarers, but remain on good terms with them.

This is an excellent idea which I already considered, but in reality their ships weren't any *better* than, say, England's- it was just that the Dutch were in the right position to usurp the Portuguese empire after Portugal got annexed by Spain.

	20-11-2002 18:13									#5
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A Frigate with transport capacity then, with 1 or 2 spaces? Making it easier to conquer overseas, no need to build Caravels, unless a large invasion is planned.

	20-11-2002 23:19									#6
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But is that historically accurate? I'm trying to find an actual group or item from history that fits into the Civ 3 game format, and while the Dutch did indeed possess a large overseas empire, it's not directly tied to any advantage they had in "units".

	21-11-2002 00:50									#7
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I seem to recall a discussion elsewhere about this same issue; and I saw it suggested that they get a UU of a sloop; in essence a much faster transport vessel; armed better than a caravel, though not quite as well as a Frigate.

This would likely involve a series of tweaks to the whole naval unit chain- but I'm an advocate of that anyway. The progression seems a little... sallow... to me as is.

	01-12-2002 04:37									#8
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Try a Google search for "Watergeuzen" instead of "Sea beggars". Who came up with that term anyway?

	02-12-2002 14:19									#9
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quote: Originally posted by congobeast I seem to recall a discussion elsewhere about this same issue; and I saw it suggested that they get a UU of a sloop; in essence a much faster transport vessel; armed better than a caravel, though not quite as well as a Frigate.

Hmmh... how about a "Fleute"? Meaning a transport vessel with better attack and faster than the replaced Galleons.

	02-12-2002 23:51									#10
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Do you mean the ships the Geuzen used to capture dutch towns that were occupied by the Spanish in the Eighty Years' War?
Or do you mean the ships that were used by the VOC (Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie), the Dutch East-India Company, for trading in south-east Asia and bringing goods to and from south-east Asia?

	03-12-2002 00:27									#11
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a fleute or "fluyt" was in essence a very fast, but small ship, with almost no fighting capability..

maybe a 1.1.6 (trans:2 or 3)

but earlier (when the dutch weren't yet independent) some Dutch were very good at finding new tactics....
(so maybe pikemen 3.3.1)

	03-12-2002 14:56									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun Do you mean the ships the Geuzen used to capture dutch towns that were occupied by the Spanish in the Eighty Years' War? Or do you mean the ships that were used by the VOC (Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie), the Dutch East-India Company, for trading in south-east Asia and bringing goods to and from south-east Asia?

Something between, or "mixed" the dutch East-Inda-Man with the well known dutch "Fleute/Fluyt". Both are trading ships, as far I know the Indiaman was armed well, for fighting back pirates and other dangers. Using the dutch East-India-Man for UU whould be an idea too (websurch for "Batavia"). However, name it "Fluyt" IMHO where the best idea, becouse the Fluyte is really known for beeing dutch, but some kind of East-India-Man was build by other nations too.

Why such Unit? Well, the dutch UU should be a naval unit - the dutch GA of the was based on naval trade like no different one. Gave the dutch some kind of better Man-o-War would be no good solution, I think, becouse dutch MoW was mostly weaker then other european MoW. (Yes, they fought well against english during english-dutch wars, but not becouse of better ships.)

	03-12-2002 16:34									#13
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I think the dutch discovered the MoW slightly earlier than the english did. Before the English East India Company came up to compete with the Dutch.
The Geuzen already used strong ships to free the towns that were occupied by the Spanish in the Eighty Years' War, so it was easy to improve these and keep the trade in dutch hands.

I've downloaded a patch several months ago in which the Babylonians were replaced by the Dutch. In that patch the Dutch had as unique unit the VOC-galleon, the ship that was used by the dutch East India Company. The patch was made for Civ3 version 1.16f, so it's quite old, but if any body likes to have it ...

	03-12-2002 22:11									#14
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So the UU will be a fast cargo ship, with lower combat values then the frigate? (Fluyt).
You may want to make it cheaper then the frigate instead of a lot faster. The Dutch were excellent shipbuilders (or so i've learned ), so a cheaper ship would make sense.

	04-12-2002 00:23									#15
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I guess a large cargoship, like a galleon, but with an amount of firepower that is a little bit smaller than that of the frigate, as you suggest Lemmy, does most compy to the ships the Dutch used.
To make it a bit cheaper seems a good idea to me, but what about a new small wonder: The East India Company, that can be build by any nation, for it was the dutch East India Company that made the trade and the use of such ships at a great scale possible.
Another possibility is a normal wonder: the VOC or name it East India Company, both should reduce the costs of naval units and should produce extra trade, the wonder can eventually be made obsolete by building the normal Trading Company.
An alternative to making the units cheaper seems to me that they become veteran as standard, but I think cheaper units are better.

	04-12-2002 16:48									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy So the UU will be a fast cargo ship, with lower combat values then the frigate? (Fluyt).

Yes, this is what I suggested. "Fast" means: +1, so other Civs with Magellan could catch them and if Dutch are building Magellan, there UU has +2. This seems much, but not too much, I think.

	09-12-2002 17:11									#17
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what about a Kaper, to replace the Privateer?

	10-12-2002 21:15									#18
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quote: Originally posted by AroSch Something between, or "mixed" the dutch East-Inda-Man with the well known dutch "Fleute/Fluyt". Both are trading ships, as far I know the Indiaman was armed well, for fighting back pirates and other dangers. Using the dutch East-India-Man for UU whould be an idea too (websurch for "Batavia"). However, name it "Fluyt" IMHO where the best idea, becouse the Fluyte is really known for beeing dutch, but some kind of East-India-Man was build by other nations too. Why such Unit? Well, the dutch UU should be a naval unit - the dutch GA of the was based on naval trade like no different one. Gave the dutch some kind of better Man-o-War would be no good solution, I think, becouse dutch MoW was mostly weaker then other european MoW. (Yes, they fought well against english during english-dutch wars, but not becouse of better ships.)

I second Arne's point A fast, well protected transport would do the trick- smaller that the Galleon in capacity, yet faster and with sizeable attack capabilities