19-11-2002 00:13									#1
	Unhappy starting city with 3 population? Inflate your Upload Space

OK, I just started a game on Monarch level. I'm still in Depotism, and I have a total of 5 cities in a circle around my capital. Two of my cities have a population of three and are static, ie.... not growing. I have the A/I managing the city mood, and they both have one entertainer each. I have one Spearman in each city, and I just placed a Temple in each city.

Now I can't understand how I could still need an entertainer in these cities if I have a Temple and a Spearman in each! I thought the Temple would turn one citizen to happy, and the Spearman would turn one to happy I get three happy by default in Monarch mode, so how could there still be unhappy citizens in those cities?

I'm not at war, and I have not pop-rushed in those cities.

Is there any way to check what is causing a city to be unhappy?

Last edited by ArmaGeddin on 19-11-2002 at 00:40

	19-11-2002 01:31									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Temples do not make citizens happy, they make one unhappy pop content. Lux make happiness. Are those cities connected to the capitol? any lux hooked up yet? Never let the the run your cities in the ealry game. To see how they feel click on one. It will probably say it is too crowded.

	19-11-2002 02:11									#3
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hmmm..... I only have one Lux hooked up, but it is hooked up to all my cities.


Why would a citizen be "overcrowded" ?

	19-11-2002 02:34									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

You really shouldn't have any unhappy citizens if it is as you described.

On Monarch, your first 2 citizens are born content.
A spearman acts as military police, adding 1 content.
A temple makes one content.
And a lux makes one content move to happy (allowing an unhapy, if necessary).

Based on that, you should be able to grow to 5 citizens without any entertainers.

As vmxa1 said, click on the citizen's face (at the bottom of the city view) and you'll get an explanation as to why they're unhappy.

But also take away control of moods from the AI and see if you actually need an entertainer. I have sometimes seen the AI create and entertainer, and then seemingly "forget" that it is no longer needed (i.e., in you situation, maybe a city grew to size 3 before the spearman or temple arrived and the AI created an entertainer, but hasn't yet reassessed whether one is necessary) -- this can be frustrating, because sometimes it seems that the governors only reassess a situation when population grows or shrinks, or when entertainment spending is adjusted. Best advice is not to let the AI governors manage your cities early.

Catt

	19-11-2002 03:00									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

OK, ill roll over the pop tonight and see why they are unhappy. I did not realize you could do that and it will more than likely answer my question.

I also thought that with 3 pop a troop and a temple the city should be happy. In fact, ALL my other cities ARE happy.

	19-11-2002 03:24									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Ever do any pop rushing in that city?

	19-11-2002 03:43									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Catt:

Also with the governors, they Often fail to assign workers appropriately. eg. Build a harbor in a city with tundra, you have to go in manually to set one of the laborers to work the sea tile.

	19-11-2002 14:41									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Governors can be very useful cause they save you a lot of micromanagement but they are not as effective as a human. Myself I wait to turn them on until I really need them. When I reach 10-15 cities with an representative government is about the right time. I often turn them off for special occasions like a wonder-race or when I want to starve a city down.

They are sometimes a bit slow and don't change worker orders until next turn.

BTW, my standard governor setting is manage mood, optimize production and commerce(but not food)

	19-11-2002 14:57									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Starve a city! That's horrible. Why don't you build settlers instead?

	19-11-2002 17:37									#10
	Remove this text

quote: Starve a city! That's horrible. Why don't you build settlers instead?

Not sure bongo starves his cities, but I starve some of mine too. If I conquer a foreign city, but don't want to Raze it (new territory an AI may take & the city may have buildings or a wonder already built). Abandon & replace with a new Settler means I have to take productivity & people away from 1 of my current cities - which sometimes is a better alternative, but not always. Foreign citizens complain too much about their 'mother homeland' & when cities flip back it is often those where the # of foreign citizens are highest - from my experience anyways. I don't want to build foreign Settlers (even to disband), since that takes more time/money. I try to build workers 1st, but if the city is corrupt, I have too many workers, and/or do not feel like paying 80 gold for a worker - Starvation is the best choice. But I prefer not to use the ugly word Starvation... since I pull all the foreign citizens up & Scientists appear, I see it as "donating their bodies to science." How else am I going to find the cure for cancer?
I'm thinking here is what some looked like before the... scientific tests...

	19-11-2002 20:02									#11
	Got spare money?

"Donating their bodies to science"

Cities with foreign citzens are simply easier to control if there are only one of them

	20-11-2002 17:39									#12
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Pyrodrew:

Just build the settler from the city you plan to replace, sure it will be a foreign citizen when the new city is founded but he will be assimilated in short order. Because you have replaced the old city with a new city the asimilation process will begin in the turn the new city is founded (and you have eliminated the enemy civ's culture, so there is little chance for a flip).

	21-11-2002 01:35									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Building settlers still can take more time and/or money than a quick starvation - especially in heavily corrupt foreign cities.
And sometimes the foreign civilization is still alive.

Last edited by Pyrodrew on 21-11-2002 at 01:48

	21-11-2002 01:46									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I checked the city tonight and they are pissed because I pop rushed and because they are crowded.

How long until the pop rush effects wear off? Also, what is this "crowding" they are talking about?

	21-11-2002 02:26									#15
	Re: Unhappy starting city with 3 population? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by ArmaGeddin on 11/18 I'm not at war, and I have not pop-rushed in those cities.

quote: Originally posted by ArmaGeddin on 11/20 I checked the city tonight and they are pissed because I pop rushed and because they are crowded.

Makes it hard to diagnose a problem when the symptoms and circumstances aren't accurately described .

quote: How long until the pop rush effects wear off? Also, what is this "crowding" they are talking about?

Pop-rushing makes one citizen unhappy for 20 turns (per pop rushed). I can't remember if the penalty is paid concurrently or consecutively, but I do know that if only one pop remains but many "20-turn penalties" remain that they will continue consecutively (so it could last for many, many turns).

The "crowding" is just generic unhappiness. It is a meaningless reason that really only serves to highlight that they're not unhappy due to pop-rushing ("we cannot forget the cruel oppression. . ."), drafting ("No more draft! Hell no, we won't go . . ."), war weariness ("Give peace a chance. . ."), or nationality issues ("Stop the aggression against our mother country. . . ").

Catt

EDIT: Corrected citizen comments.

	21-11-2002 03:43									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by bongo Governors can be very useful cause they save you a lot of micromanagement but they are not as effective as a human. Myself I wait to turn them on until I really need them. When I reach 10-15 cities with an representative government is about the right time. I often turn them off for special occasions like a wonder-race or when I want to starve a city down. They are sometimes a bit slow and don't change worker orders until next turn. BTW, my standard governor setting is manage mood, optimize production and commerce(but not food)

The governors are extremely usefull for switching governments.

	21-11-2002 17:51									#17
	Tired of ads?

Yes they are. Governors have removed much of the micromanaging that made civ2 so boring in the endgame.

	21-11-2002 23:06									#18
	Tired of ads?

Well excuuuuuuuuuuuuse me! (done in my best Steve Martin impression) hehe.....


Yea, I didnt think I had pop rushed in any of those cities, but I guess I did. (sheepish smile). The penalty sure does last a long time.


And I figured out that crowding is just their way of saying I need a library or a temple or something.

	22-11-2002 00:17									#19
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by ArmaGeddin I checked the city tonight and they are pissed because I pop rushed and because they are crowded. How long until the pop rush effects wear off? Also, what is this "crowding" they are talking about?

Can I toss out an I told you so back on the 18th.

	22-11-2002 09:41									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew Building settlers still can take more time and/or money than a quick starvation - especially in heavily corrupt foreign cities. And sometimes the foreign civilization is still alive.

If the civ is still alive that is an even greater reason for rushing the settler, as you have a much greater chance for a CF. And it is not expensive especially if you wait a turn or two (and you usually have to wait for resistance to end anyways.) Of course, after recycling you can sell off the remaining improvements of the settler and decrease or eliminate the waiting time.

	23-11-2002 08:24									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: If the civ is still alive that is an even greater reason for rushing the settler, as you have a much greater chance for a CF.

CFs is a reason to starve if anything. I can Starve AND build libraries & temples to prevent CFs. Building Settlers does not help prevent CFs. Starvation does not cause CFs. Furthermore, using that technique when conquering multiple large foreign cities would result in numerous foreign settlers being useless in a already REX-filled map. If the civ is still alive, adding foreigners to current cities makes them unhappy eating liabilities if war starts with that civ & those foreigners are impossible to remove. Building endless settlers from 20 size 20 cities is not cheap.

quote: it is not expensive especially if you wait a turn or two

Expensive is a relative term and depends on how your civ is doing at the time & what age you are in.

By keeping a wide variety of choices to me I leverage the strengths in each situation. Always choosing settlers over starvation is a rigid absolute to follow.

	23-11-2002 11:19									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Pyrodrew:

The strategy is not build settlers.....

Its build a settler, abandon worthless city, found new city.

The only drawback is that it does take a few turns to get the new city off of the ground, but in the long run it is worth it IMO. (it takes considerably less time after steampower)


I did not say that you should not starve a city, that is certainly a wise option, but a size 25 city takes a long time to kill off its citizens and will often have double digit # of resisters. A high risk of a CF if you decide to keep it. The abandon/refound option is most useful when capturing core cities with no wonders built in them.

	24-11-2002 00:27									#23
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

hi ,

the best to do if the citizens are not happy is to get some workers or settlers , in other words , try to expand , until you get some lux goods or a different form of government or improvements , ...

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 06:08									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: The strategy is not build settlers..... Its build a settler, abandon worthless city, found new city. a size 25 city takes a long time to kill off its citizens and will often have double digit # of resisters.

That's just it - size 25 cities are not always worthless (especially with a wonder as mentioned). If you think it's takes a long time to kill off 24 citizens, do the math to see how long it takes to rebuild a marketplace, bank, hospital, factory, harbor, stock exchange, police station, courthouse, or whatever else is in there. Core cities usually have many of these. You'll spend infinity (in time or money) if the cities are far from your capital/FB. Starvation + Build Settler/Worker will kill the city off even quicker than you think.
I have not found resisters to be a big problem to remove. For CFs, I compare the 2 civs culture, palace distance, & other factors accordingly to determine the best course of action.

	24-11-2002 16:26									#25
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew That's just it - size 25 cities are not always worthless (especially with a wonder as mentioned). If you think it's takes a long time to kill off 24 citizens, do the math to see how long it takes to rebuild a marketplace, bank, hospital, factory, harbor, stock exchange, police station, courthouse, or whatever else is in there. Core cities usually have many of these. You'll spend infinity (in time or money) if the cities are far from your capital/FB. Starvation + Build Settler/Worker will kill the city off even quicker than you think. I have not found resisters to be a big problem to remove. For CFs, I compare the 2 civs culture, palace distance, & other factors accordingly to determine the best course of action.

hi ,

you have a good point

now , why on earth would you would kill of a city when its size 25 , ..... because you have some troubles there , well you ( as a player ) should have anticipated this before you build the city , and definatly before it came to size 25 , ......

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 21:48									#26
	Got spare money?

quote: why on earth would you would kill of a city when its size 25 , ..... because you have some troubles there , well you ( as a player ) should have anticipated this before you build the city , and definatly before it came to size 25

Because I did not build the city.
It's a conquered foreign city & I am killing foreign citizens in that city for reasons discussed earlier.

	24-11-2002 21:57									#27
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew Because I did not build the city. It's a conquered foreign city & I am killing foreign citizens in that city for reasons discussed earlier.

hi ,

, okay , the fastest way to do it is to sell buildings for settlers , if no buildings are left , or just simply not there , wait a turn and rush the settler or worker , ......

, if you get some workers from the first original citizens , sell them to an other civ , ..... its a great way to provoke a WW , ......;

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 22:33									#28
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: the fastest way to do it is to sell buildings for settlers , if no buildings are left , or just simply not there , wait a turn and rush the settler or worker

The fastest way is to rush settlers/workers AND starve the city.

It's counter-productive to sell buildings for settlers & then spend even more time/money just to rebuild those buildings.

Keep the buildings, keep the city, just remove/kill the foreigners.

	24-11-2002 22:40									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew The fastest way is to rush settlers/workers AND starve the city. It's counter-productive to sell buildings for settlers & then spend even more time/money just to rebuild those buildings. Keep the buildings, keep the city, just remove/kill the foreigners.

hi ,

no need to starve them , why let a worker or settler go to waste , .......

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 22:58									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: no need to starve them , why let a worker or settler go to waste

1. It's faster... remember the "fastest way";
2. It's cheaper;
3. It's better if the city does CF - less citizens for the opponent.

In addition you may not need more settlers or workers.