20-11-2002 00:12									#61
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Blackstone, China reacts very angrily to any attempt to tie trade to political reform.

In the 1980s, there were those in the US who wanted to do just what you suggest (tie trade to human rights) but they were defeated by those who argued that if we tried to do that, we would lose out on any business in China, and the Chinese would simply trade with Europe (which had no intention of tying trade to human rights in China).

It was Bush the elder who presided over the splitting of trade policy from human rights concerns w/regard to China.

-Arrian

	20-11-2002 00:33									#62
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Tieing trade to human rights won't work against China. A country the size of China is immune to the usual "economic embargo". What you get in this case is that China would just turn into another North Korea, and the US would lose out tons of business.

	20-11-2002 17:32									#63
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I do think that the West is head and shoulders above the rest and would rather trust our policy makers over most of the worlds any time.

The thrust of what I`m saying is that we should be working to spread freedom and encourage democracy not just our influence.

While this might sound obvious when you look at some of the criminals that we have helped, and in no small way helped to where they are, we should realise that alot of the world is barbaric and cruel and we have either stood by and watched or helped it to get that bad.

Its time for a real change.


I say this in the knowledge that since 11/9 my government has now stopped vetting who it sells weapons to and is now selling to and despot who wants in on the war on terror [bearing in mind that most will go out and put down their political opposition in the name of fighting terror].

	20-11-2002 18:01									#64
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This poll is plain stupid, none of the choices is explaining the hatred against the US, although the US foreign policy plays a very important role in the "game". Actually the (not really wise) foreign policy helps those nut-cases to gain supporters in those countries, yet it's not the only cause for the hate.
Some guys have constructed a huge conspiracy-theory of the evil non-believers and the US foreign policy helps them in convincing people in this point.

Beside that I agree with DanS, when he states:

quote: The terrorists hate anything that stands in the way of the creation of a twisted pan-muslim sharia wonderland.

Whoever voted for "jealosy" doesn't have even the least bit of understanding of the motives of human behavior.

	20-11-2002 19:36									#65
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Ahem... (*cough*)...

Regarding the UN and the no-fly zones...

Well, the fact of the matter is that the UN never endorsed the no-fly zones, and so enforcing them is in no way related to enforcing any UN resolution.

As for the live fire... well, it seems pretty clear to me that as far as the Iraqis are concerned, those are enemy aircraft invading their airspace. Would Americans allow the Russians and the Chinese to enforce no-fly zones in the States just because the Russians and the Chinese felt like doing it? Do you think such a zone could be enforced without anyone ever taking a shot at any of those planes? Not very likely...

	20-11-2002 22:19									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Guardian Ahem... (*cough*)... Regarding the UN and the no-fly zones... Well, the fact of the matter is that the UN never endorsed the no-fly zones, and so enforcing them is in no way related to enforcing any UN resolution. As for the live fire... well, it seems pretty clear to me that as far as the Iraqis are concerned, those are enemy aircraft invading their airspace. Would Americans allow the Russians and the Chinese to enforce no-fly zones in the States just because the Russians and the Chinese felt like doing it? Do you think such a zone could be enforced without anyone ever taking a shot at any of those planes? Not very likely...

Of course we have been bombing them almost all the time. Its only fair that we let them have a go.

	20-11-2002 22:45									#67
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BlackStone:

When I spoke about the blind and the blind, I meant that the vast majority of posters in this forum, for undertandable reasons, ahve no clue what it is to live on the other side of US or Western policy, nor have they had much interaction ever with many individuals that have seen the other side. You end up with people arguing ideological points with almost no frame of reference to anyting other than their pre-existing biases, without the benefit of expericnes had or shared that may moderate their views or expose them to different ones in a direct way.

I really wish we had more posters from areas of the world that do know about the high price of politics, and not mostly people who's biggest experience with political chaos was the 200 US elections. Currently the biggest crop come from Eastern Europe, though many are too young to vividly remember those times.

	20-11-2002 23:01									#68
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Your are right in the whole, but remember that there are alot of loder posters here who despite having a life time of experience still talk nonsense.

I think that people from more developing countries probable have better things to do with their time. I do agree that it would be very rewarding to have their views aired here.

	20-11-2002 23:06									#69
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I am not talking about life experience in general, but having specific experiences of having felt the consequences, both good and bad, of US foreign policy as it affects people outside the West.

If I want to know about hunger and deprevation, who would I ask: some 20 year old who in his earlier days has felt the pangs of hunger, or some 50 year old from San Diego who's closest expericne with hunger was not eating for 3 days cause he had some flu? Obviously the 20 year old. Fine, he won't be as educated as the 50 year old or have as developed world-view, but he will have insights into that human condition that the 50 year old does not have, and should be happy that he does not have.

	21-11-2002 00:25									#70
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by GePap I am not talking about life experience in general, but having specific experiences of having felt the consequences, both good and bad, of US foreign policy as it affects people outside the West. If I want to know about hunger and deprevation, who would I ask: some 20 year old who in his earlier days has felt the pangs of hunger, or some 50 year old from San Diego who's closest expericne with hunger was not eating for 3 days cause he had some flu? Obviously the 20 year old. Fine, he won't be as educated as the 50 year old or have as developed world-view, but he will have insights into that human condition that the 50 year old does not have, and should be happy that he does not have.

I see what your saying but surely they have access to the media and information on the impact of bad western policy. I mean you don`t need to have been present at an incident to appreciate that the actions were wrong.

	21-11-2002 01:08									#71
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You are all absolutely correct about democracy and despotism. The solution is clear. The western democracies must install democracies in the despotic nations, whether they like it or not. And if they resist, bomb 'em back to the stone age. We'll teach them what happens when you resist freedom!



How about...

RESPECT THEIR FOCKING SOVEREIGNTY!

So- when are the UN weapons inspectors coming to check out American weapons of mass destruction, biological and chemical weapons stores, and missile firing drones used to assassinate untried and uncharged citizens in foreign countries???

	21-11-2002 01:11									#72
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Someone seems a little testy today.

	21-11-2002 01:51									#73
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	21-11-2002 03:18									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I love to see the blind argue tha blind: that is, people who have never been, or never know what it is like to be at the otehr side argue with people who are just the same. Does anyone wonder why lybians, Syrians, and Iraqis are so undererpresented in Al Qaeda, or why the most pro-US state in the MIddle east after Israel is Iran? Let me give you a clue: when someone comes at night to take a family member or close friend away, and the little stamp on the weapon that the guards aree using says 'made in the US', how dos that endear one to great all American values? Yes, Britain and France did much to create the modern Middle east, butt hat was 80 years ago. Most people in th Middle East are under 30: what do they care about 1920? they care about today. It is the US, not UK or France, that give Mubarak 2 billion dollar a year, and it is the US who has troop in Saudi Arabia to guard the house of Saud, and we are their biggest arms dealers by far. Yes, Iranians came to hate us for our support of the Shah, so why wuld things work any differently in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, the two biggest sources of anti-American terrorists?

My guess is that the majority of small arms used throughout the middle east are of Soviet origin. Revolutionary Iran on the other hand inherited a lage supply of American weapons from the Shah. Many of the smaller states on the Arabian peninsula have traditionaly used British weapons. The Saudis use US or other NATO weapons, but their dynasty existed long before the US got involved in the area, and in fact their power traditionally came from their position as the heads of the Wahabi sect. Do you have any proof that their is much general discontent with the house of Saud in Saudi Arabia?

	21-11-2002 03:24									#75
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone Tell me if we are going that far back where were your founding fathers from. And which continent can around 70% of your population trace its roots back to. Its a small world

Can you cite a specific incident of government sponsored anti-semitism in the entire history of the US? Throughout much of our history people came here precisely to escape the general social climate of Europe. IIRC it was not legal for a jew to have a government position in the UK until late in the 19th century. Benjamin Disraelis found it convenient to convert to Anglicanism.

	21-11-2002 16:36									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Can you cite a specific incident of government sponsored anti-semitism in the entire history of the US? Throughout much of our history people came here precisely to escape the general social climate of Europe. IIRC it was not legal for a jew to have a government position in the UK until late in the 19th century. Benjamin Disraelis found it convenient to convert to Anglicanism.

What are you trying to say that if there was one incident of bigotry in my country at any point thats it all of the following generations are bigots.

I have heard about clutching at straws but this is pathetic.

and when you talk about the enrire history of the US.... you have only been around five minutes... and given the amount of equality and liberal tendancies towards peoples of African decent (yes we banned slavery before you imagine that), I`m not just talking about slavery but also infecting them with disease to see what happens [in the last 50 years], and lets not talk about the indiginous peoples of north America and how well you treated them. Since the beginning your country has been a fighting ground where different ethnic groups would abuse each other.

So leave the high and mighty attitude at the door. You want to believe everything your spoon fed great, but don`t chastise the rest of the world for viewing the facts and then making their minds up.

If there is a backward right wing country in the world it will probably be right outside which ever window you look out of.

	21-11-2002 18:20									#77
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone What are you trying to say that if there was one incident of bigotry in my country at any point thats it all of the following generations are bigots. I have heard about clutching at straws but this is pathetic.

Your country has an anti-Semitic record that stretches back for centuries.

quote: Originally posted by BlackStone and when you talk about the enrire history of the US.... you have only been around five minutes... and given the amount of equality and liberal tendancies towards peoples of African decent (yes we banned slavery before you imagine that),

Your country introduced slavery here. How many slaves were freed in England btw?

quote: Originally posted by BlackStone I`m not just talking about slavery but also infecting them with disease to see what happens [in the last 50 years], and lets not talk about the indiginous peoples of north America and how well you treated them. Since the beginning your country has been a fighting ground where different ethnic groups would abuse each other.

While Britain has been a place where the English have abused everyone else for far longer.

quote: Originally posted by BlackStone So leave the high and mighty attitude at the door. You want to believe everything your spoon fed great, but don`t chastise the rest of the world for viewing the facts and then making their minds up.

Oh the irony.

	21-11-2002 18:28									#78
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To be fair to britain we abolished slavery far before the US.

And our policy to other people wasn't bigoted, we traeted everone badly

It seems slightly ridiculous to argue over whose great great granparents were more elightened


Anti semitism is condemed in the UK as it in the US theese dyas that is what counts.

	21-11-2002 19:37									#79
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Stinger

-Arrian