19-11-2002 19:20									#1
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The question is a simple one, who believes that the US has been targeted by terrorists because they [the terrorists] hate freedom / are jealous of the rich peaceful US or because they hate US foreign policy.

I will be clear I think that the attacks on US targets are a direct result of their Foreign policy. The US has double standards and very low standards when it comes to choosing its friends [remember Iraq] paying no attention to human rights violations if there is a chance of securing another supply of oil.

This is my opinion taking into account all of the information that I have seen. I am open to other viewpoints; I have just not heard anything remotely intelligent or adult when individuals argue the jealousy case [that ussually involves a massive stretch of the imagination even for the willingly stupid], so far.


If you disagree, enlighten me.

Last edited by BlackStone on 19-11-2002 at 19:32

	19-11-2002 19:38									#2
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Well I can't disagree, it is the US foreigh policy, and lately the British support that can give us some underground gassing and similar.

	19-11-2002 19:39									#3
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone ...the rich peaceful US...

That's a good one!

As for my vote, well, I think it's a conglomerate of the first 2 options. Make it a multiple choice poll .

	19-11-2002 19:53									#4
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I agree that it is US policy much more so than "jealousy" of our lifestyle that (in part) makes us a target. Hypocrisy & double standards tend to really upset people for some reason... US foreign policy clearly leaves much to be desired.

However, I don't think its quite as simple as that. There is more going on.

A lot of it has to do with the overall political situation in the Middle East. The Arab nations are despotic, and thus people who would otherwise (under a democratic system) probably be active in political parties are driven underground and become part of more shadowy organizations, perhaps terrorist ones. Without a legitimate outlet for their frustrations, they may turn to violence. Add to this the fanatical, twisted version of Islam that preaches glorious martyrdom for those who blow themselves up and manage to take a bunch of innocent civilians with them.

Further, the Arab governments do their best to deflect any criticism of how they run things by directing their people's rage at Israel, and by extension, the U.S. I'm not saying that Israel and the US have done nothing wrong, but I think we can agree that the propoganda that the Arab nations feed their people is over the top. Accordingly to them, Israel is responsible for just about everything that's wrong in their people's lives, and clearly, if it isn't Israel's fault, is America that's to blame.

The "blame America for everything" mindset spreads because there are always things its proponents can point to in US policy that back it up. It's a gross exaggeration at best, but it's... easy, I guess. It's easy to blame the US and/or "the West" for the problems in the world, whether or not we are actually to blame for any given problem.

I do think that jealousy does play a roll - just a small one. I don't think the terrorists themselves are jealous at all. I do think that some of their apologists may be.

So, to sum up, I agree that US policy the major factor, but there are other important ingredients.

-Arrian

	19-11-2002 20:08									#5
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The terrorists hate us for a number of reasons, which are mostly different than why we get bad marks from the muslim public at large.

The muslim public at large doesn't like our support for Israel and sometimes vaguely associates the US with their individual rulers (depends on the country).

The terrorists hate anything that stands in the way of the creation of a twisted pan-muslim sharia wonderland. They hate what we stand for, but not because of what it is. Rather, what it is not--i.e., their twisted vision. There is nothing we could do to placate these fellas.

	19-11-2002 20:17									#6
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Of course it's US foriegn policy, we support the Jews, even the Saudis admit THAT'S the heart of the matter.

Maybe we should follow the stalworth example of the Muslim world's favorite, France.

They are the ones who sold Saddam most of his weapons, they are the ones who blocked action against another of their allies, Slobo, they are the ones who allowed the Rwanda massacres, refusing to commit their on site forces, yes, let us follow the brave EU into a wonderful future where the only good jew is a dead jew, and personal freedom is a joke, supressed under a fanatic's heel, as long as the EU gets cheap oil and makes a buck.

Your some peace of work Blackstone, did you ever consider that those people in the ME SHOULD be opposed?

	19-11-2002 20:19									#7
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You're getting caught on a side issue, Chris. A big side issue, but a side issue nonetheless.

	19-11-2002 20:19									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Of course it's US foriegn policy, we support the Jews, even the Saudis admit THAT'S the heart of the matter. Maybe we should follow the stalworth example of the Muslim world's favorite, France. They are the ones who sold Saddam most of his weapons, they are the ones who blocked action against another of their allies, Slobo, they are the ones who allowed the Rwanda massacres, refusing to commit their on site forces, yes, let us follow the brave EU into a wonderful future where the only good jew is a dead jew, and personal freedom is a joke, supressed under a fanatic's heel, as long as the EU gets cheap oil and makes a buck. Your some peace of work Blackstone, did you ever consider that those people in the ME SHOULD be opposed?

the perception rightly or wrongly is tha the US is only out to secure cheap oil

	19-11-2002 20:21									#9
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American cold war policy might be responsible for hatred by Iranians towards the US, but it doesn't explain the feelings of Saudis. We certainly did not put the house of Saud on the throne, that distinction belongs to the Brits. Actually, the Brits and French are virtually alone in taking the blame for shaping the middle east aas it is today. They're the ones who drew the maps up in the 1920s. A funny thing about dissidents in the former Euro colonies, most of them transferred their hatred towards their former colonial masters to hatred of the US in the 70s and 80s. I lived in some former Brit colonies that were hotbeds of cold war conflict in the 70s. I would here locals rant and rave about how they were screwed by the old country, then turn around and lay the blame squarely on the US. Why? Simply because they viewed the UK as an utter non-entity and had concluded that squeezing them would be about the same as squeezing a stone.

Concerning the US policy towards Israel I might remind you that European governments have historically given Israel a great deal of support also, and that it was your barbaric treatment of the Jews that not only drove the largest section of Israeli population to move to Israel, but also has given them that sense of desparation that impels so much of their domestic policy towards the Palestinian. When an Israeli says "Never again" he's not talking about the US you know. Don't you?

	19-11-2002 20:22									#10
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger the perception rightly or wrongly is tha the US is only out to secure cheap oil

How ironic, when that's EXACTLY why France acts as it does, to secure cheap oil.

	19-11-2002 20:25									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 How ironic, when that's EXACTLY why France acts as it does, to secure cheap oil.

You are probbaly correct, but if the US spent some time talking about the oil issue they might allay peoples suspicisons

	19-11-2002 20:27									#12
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quote: Actually, the Brits and French are virtually alone in taking the blame for shaping the middle east aas it is today. They're the ones who drew the maps up in the 1920s. A funny thing about dissidents in the former Euro colonies, most of them transferred their hatred towards their former colonial masters to hatred of the US in the 70s and 80s. I lived in some former Brit colonies that were hotbeds of cold war conflict in the 70s. I would here locals rant and rave about how they were screwed by the old country, then turn around and lay the blame squarely on the US. Why? Simply because they viewed the UK as an utter non-entity and had concluded that squeezing them would be about the same as squeezing a stone.

Damn, I meant to bring this issue up in my post and forgot it. You said it better than I would have anyway.

-Arrian

	19-11-2002 20:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by DanS You're getting caught on a side issue, Chris. A big side issue, but a side issue nonetheless.

It's the heart of the matter Dan.

9 times out of 10, the starter of this kind of thread fully intends it to be a lengthy condemnation of the United States, as they are of a Leftist or Socialist blend, so to speak, and live in a world where all the worlds problems can be squarely laid at the US door, irreguardless of the facts.

The TRUTH of the matter is FAR different, as you and I both know.
If we went along with our "allies" on the continent, all we need do is proclaim Saddam reformed, and buy all his oil while bank-rolling his take-over of the entire ME.

Be thankful we DON'T think like the French, or that is EXACTLY what would come to pass, just look at how the French sabotaged the efforts in the Balkans, and managed to waterdown the latest resolution against their old pal Saddam.
They seem to have a hard-on for dictators, yet we are often told the US does that, what a laugh.

	19-11-2002 20:30									#14
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Bottom-line, WTF difference does it make?
Like either or any option excuses terrorist action?

	19-11-2002 20:31									#15
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger You are probbaly correct, but if the US spent some time talking about the oil issue they might allay peoples suspicisons

Under the current situation, the US is permitted, by UN resolution to buy ALL the oil it wants at cheap prices.

If the US was after securing their oil, all it need do is NOTHING.

	19-11-2002 20:34									#16
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Bottom-line, WTF difference does it make? Like either or any option excuses terrorist action?

Ha, you know how some people react to terrorism, if it's aimed at Israel Sloww.

A perfect example, a gunman burts into a house, kills a woman, a two small children, and we see it explained away as "justifible" or "understandable" by some posters.

Against that mindset, what is the use of reason?

	19-11-2002 20:35									#17
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I'm with you, Chris, but the Jews aren't the heart of the matter--they're a side issue to OBL, et al. Something to stir up the masses.

	19-11-2002 20:38									#18
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True. OBL tacked on the Israeli/Pal conflict pretty recently. The main issue for him was US troops on Saudi soil (or rather, soldiers of the infidel on Arab lands).

-Arrian

	19-11-2002 20:39									#19
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For Bin Laden maybe Dan, but not the rest of our "allies", in both the ME and Europe.

As long as Israel exsists, so too will terrorism, and these threads that seek to make it seem "US evil policy" brings on those attacks.

And endless circle.

	19-11-2002 20:41									#20
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I think Saddam should be got rid of-But I do think it woul d help hugley if the US (and whoever gave him stuff and money etc) said they got it completley and utterly wrong, that they should never have funded him in the first place. That they are not intending to make sure US companies get all the contracts to rebuild iraqi oil infrastucture AND they will stop giving unstinting support to Saudi Arabia who in alot of peoples opinions is as bad as Iraq.

They just need to a better PR job

	19-11-2002 20:43									#21
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"And endless circle."

Maybe, but these things are a matter of degrees. Some semblance of long-term peace can be brokered.

Even Hamas was dormant for a good long while.

	19-11-2002 20:46									#22
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I think it's obvious the US got it wrong with Saddam, we trusted him once, and now we know better.

But what is surprissing is why all those "humanists" out there, that oppose the removeal of Saddam, don't lift a FINGER to help the people of Iraq, who have suffered under this clown for decades.
I'm sure someone will say the US didn't do anything either, but we have tried to, for over a decade, only to be blocked by our old "friends", the French, and even more unbelivably, the UN!

	19-11-2002 20:47									#23
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who is the terrorists?
and why do you call them terrorists?

	19-11-2002 20:48									#24
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quote: Originally posted by DanS "And endless circle." Maybe, but these things are a matter of degrees. Some semblance of long-term peace can be brokered. Even Hamas was dormant for a good long while.

What fuels the Intifada Dan?

Isreal was in the "occupied territories" for 30 years, and nobody cared.

Now, whenever Israel responds violently to a terror attack, we see a ONE SIDED condemnation from our "allies" and the UN!

You think Hamas doesn't read the papers or watch the news?

	19-11-2002 20:49									#25
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I think the West should be far more procative in removing dictators, the real problem on the UN with that though is the Chineese, and their soverign nations can do anything they want to their own people stance.

	19-11-2002 20:54									#26
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Kofi Annon showed again today why the UN is really the league of nations.

According to article 8 of the last Iraq resolution, Iraq shall take NO attacks on allied forces enforcing UN resolutions.
Since Blix arrived, the Iraqis have been shooting at British and US planes, flying in the "no fly zone", a zone set up to PROTECT the Iraqi people from Saddam!

The US said, and quite rightly, this is a material breech, but Annon airily dismissed it, saying HE didn't think so, since no resolution specifically allowed the No-Fly zone.
Annon, appeazer to his last breath.

	19-11-2002 20:56									#27
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The only dictator in the world is bush.

	19-11-2002 20:57									#28
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"What fuels the Intifada Dan?"

A lot of things.

"Isreal was in the "occupied territories" for 30 years, and nobody cared."

Not so. People worked to bring about a compromise.

"You think Hamas doesn't read the papers or watch the news?"

They don't have to watch the news. Rather, they just watch their bank accounts. And I don't think Europe and the rest of our "allies" have much to do with this.

	19-11-2002 20:57									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove and that it was your barbaric treatment of the Jews that not only drove the largest section of Israeli population to move to Israel, but also has given them that sense of desparation that impels so much of their domestic policy towards the Palestinian. When an Israeli says "Never again" he's not talking about the US you know. Don't you?

What Planet are you on. My country stood against Nazi Germany when everyone else in the world had gone silent. We stood against them alone while your country was still keeping itself neutral.

To turn round and say that we did something to the Jews when we fought against the Nazi`s is yet another example of ignorance, which goes nicely along with the remark that because the Jews have suffered that is why the Palestinians are being made to suffer, who is the apologist now.


Also I am not discounting what the European powers have done but you only need to look at the country who has the bases and troops on the ground to know why they single out the US.

	19-11-2002 20:58									#30
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For the sake of argument, Chris, speaking of the UN...

If the UN did grow a backbone, what would happen when it moved to enforce resolutions w/regard to Israel? Removal of the settlements, for instance. The existence of the settlements is as much a slap in the face to the UN as Saddam's violations.

-Arrian