20-11-2002 01:38									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies I'd like better reasons why you don't accept it. I'm quite prepared for you not to, I'd just like some more justification. And some evidence the other way, if possible. And IIRC there was a case brought to the attention of the Supreme Court where someone did try and do something about it. Palm Beach Springs Electoral Commission, IIRC. The people who delivered that report that you won't accept, for reasons you haven't given. If an official report isn't enough for you, what is?

If someone did try to do something about it, and the case was brought before the supreme court, and nothing has come of it, then why do you persist in believing there is some kind of conspiracy? As for evidence the other way, the burden of proof is on you, the accuser.

	20-11-2002 02:36									#32
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Ah, Clear Skies has been affected by that disease known as Whiny-Gore-Democrat Syndrome .

Last edited by Imran Siddiqui on 20-11-2002 at 02:48

	20-11-2002 02:49									#34
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He's not alone, based on the more than occasional "letters to the editor" printed in the Chicago Tribune.

	20-11-2002 02:50									#35
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Yes, some people were probably left off the voting roles by accident. This happened to some Republican voters too, I remember hearing on the news a would be Bush voter who was left off the voting roles after he had registered through the motor voter process. But Florida also had many illegal votes cast in by prisoners who weren't supposed to vote as well as illegal immigrants. Here in Pennsylvania some precincts that went for Gore had more votes then the total population. Fraud happens in every election and the Democrats are by no means innocent of it.

Also, remember Gore had an artificial advantage due to the media. The media networks all called Florida for Gore while the polls were still open in the Western panhandle, which is in a different timezone and is an area that is heavily pro-Bush. As a result, many voters stayed home. The call turned out to be inaccurate, but it was not until after the polls had closed that the media announced Florida to be in the too close to call column. Had the media not made it's errant call in favor of Gore, Bush probably would have gotten alot more votes.

	20-11-2002 02:55									#36
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Bush does deserves some knocks for mashing his words at times just as many of us here deserve knocks for bad typing, grammar and spelling.

Some democrats will always underestimate any Republican. They certainly underestimated Nixon, Reagan and now Bush. There is a pattern. Each of these presidents showed strong leadership on foreign policy issues that spilled over into domestic popularity. Democrats on the whole care very little about foreign policy, but care a lot about social welfare issues where they think they have an unassailable position. I think they do indeed have the populist position on theise issues that guarantees an instant majority of the electorate. But many Americans still vote Republican because they trust Republicans more than Democrats on foreign policy issues.

And, as we have seen, Bush has done very well since 9/11 on foreign policy.

	20-11-2002 02:59									#37
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Actually he's been crap on foreign policy, but great on politics.

	20-11-2002 03:05									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Actually he's been crap on foreign policy, but great on politics.

Yes, I would conceed that to him

What a great leader....

	20-11-2002 03:15									#39
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Um... that wasn't supposed to be funny.

	20-11-2002 03:23									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Yes, some people were probably left off the voting roles by accident.

Actually, it was done deliberately. Kate Harris's office sent the company a letter telling them to (illegally) take knock people off the list if the name was even close or even had as few as one of the nine required criteria to be placed on the no vote list. When Greg Palast showed this letter to the man who had issued it on BBC TV, he tore off his mike and ran, not walked, away from the interview.

Kate Harris' office also told all the counties in Florida they were required to use the list and weren't allowd to let anyone on the list vote unless they could prove they were allowed (when county commissioner tossed the list after she discovered her name on it). This requiring the counties to use this illegal list was also illegal.

This list was still in force in the 2002 election, despite the State of Florida agreeing to no longer use the list in a settlement with the NAACP. Of the 94,000 names on the list, as many as 91,000 lack the full cirteria to be on the list.

This was not accidental, and it easily provided the margin of victory in 2000 (though not in 2002).

	20-11-2002 03:33									#41
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Actually, Democrats haven't underestimated the President so much as they underestimated themselves. They didn't think they could take on the President, so they didn't try except where they thought it was safe, on social security and perscription medicine.

	20-11-2002 04:12									#42
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quote: Originally posted by rah He's not alone, based on the more than occasional "letters to the editor" printed in the Chicago Tribune.

Rah: Tell Clear Skies about elections in Chicago.

	20-11-2002 04:26									#43
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Even assuming Katherine Harris intentionally illegaly disenfranchised voters, it is not clear how many would have voted, and it still does not take away the various frauds and illegal actions taking by the Democrats throughout the country. Neither side ever has clean hands in an election. But although the election back then was confused, it is clear now a good majority of the populace supports Bush, and his support was reaffirmed by the 2002 election.

	20-11-2002 04:30									#44
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Chicago elections aren't all the dirty anymore. Haven't been since the Daley machine was destroyed with the election of Mayor Jane Byrne (sp?).

There is still corruption in the elections, but not of the voting dead or missing ballots variety.

My buddy was working a campaign for an alderman who wasn't part of the new Daley machine. As he's canvassing, he gets jumped by six thugs who whack him in the knees. His thought at the time however, wasn't oh SH*T!, HELP! but, "You know, I've always knew this tuff happened, but I can't believe it's happening to ME." The Daley candidate won.

ANother example, my evil landlord from hell brought our alderwoman by, a corrupt and evil crone by the name of Vilma Colom (to whom I was completely opposed). They wanted us to sign a petition to help get Colom on the ballot. I hid in the bedroom, Bunnygrrl signed the petition. Definately not a good idea to piss off the machine to its face.

	20-11-2002 04:33									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi Even assuming Katherine Harris intentionally illegaly disenfranchised voters, it is not clear how many would have voted,

Assuming a little less than half would have voted (given the overall rates in the population), the percentage of the people knocked of the list that were Black (46%) and Black voting for Gore (80%), it is probably that had then not been prevented from voting Gore would have won Florida by 7,000 votes.

As for what the Dems did in the rest of the country, I can't say. It was likely canceled out by what the Republicans did in the rest of the country.

	20-11-2002 04:44									#46
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It is hard to say. But I haven't heard of any Republican wrongdoings outside of Florida, and I am sure if there was even a rumor of somone doing something wrong people would have complained and the Dems would have accepted it as Gospel. I know from what I have heard though here it seems rather unlikely Gore would have still carried Pennsylvania had the election been clean. As for Florida, it is again hard to know exactly how many on that list would have voted for Gore, as well as how many illegal votes Gore got from illegal immigrants, convicted felons, and how many votes Bush lost because of the Media's errant calling Florida for Gore.

	20-11-2002 04:48									#47
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, it was done deliberately. Kate Harris's office sent the company a letter telling them to (illegally) take knock people off the list if the name was even close or even had as few as one of the nine required criteria to be placed on the no vote list. When Greg Palast showed this letter to the man who had issued it on BBC TV, he tore off his mike and ran, not walked, away from the interview. Kate Harris' office also told all the counties in Florida they were required to use the list and weren't allowd to let anyone on the list vote unless they could prove they were allowed (when county commissioner tossed the list after she discovered her name on it). This requiring the counties to use this illegal list was also illegal. This list was still in force in the 2002 election, despite the State of Florida agreeing to no longer use the list in a settlement with the NAACP. Of the 94,000 names on the list, as many as 91,000 lack the full cirteria to be on the list. This was not accidental, and it easily provided the margin of victory in 2000 (though not in 2002).

And the criminal (or even civil) indictment for this illegal activity by a states attorney general is where? Surely the democrats didnt miss the chance to (at least) blacken Jeb Bush with this in the recent Florida elections (where they got their asses kicked). Pull the other one.

	20-11-2002 04:57									#48
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The State AG is a Republican. The AG of the US is in office because of this activity, and surely wouldn't be so stupid as to deliberately throw light on his own illegitimacy.

My info, while pulled largely from Greg Palast's writings, is echoed in the findings of the US election commission. However, they have no authority to do anything about it. That is up to Ashcroft.

As I pointed out in a later post, that information formed the basis of the NAACP's lawsuit against the State of Florida, which was settled out of court when Florida agreed not to use the list anymore. It then used the list a few months later.

If you could be arsed to follow the links previously provided you might make yourself aware of theft of the Presidency. Simply because someone you like is in the office is no reason to ignore what happened. I don't like Gore any better than I like Bush. It pretty much doesn't matter who the President is, I'll hate him. But the process was violated, and that makes this different.

	20-11-2002 05:16									#49
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Actually, it was done deliberately. Kate Harris's office sent the company a letter telling them to (illegally) take knock people off the list if the name was even close or even had as few as one of the nine required criteria to be placed on the no vote list. When Greg Palast showed this letter to the man who had issued it on BBC TV, he tore off his mike and ran, not walked, away from the interview. Kate Harris' office also told all the counties in Florida they were required to use the list and weren't allowd to let anyone on the list vote unless they could prove they were allowed (when county commissioner tossed the list after she discovered her name on it). This requiring the counties to use this illegal list was also illegal. This list was still in force in the 2002 election, despite the State of Florida agreeing to no longer use the list in a settlement with the NAACP. Of the 94,000 names on the list, as many as 91,000 lack the full cirteria to be on the list. This was not accidental, and it easily provided the margin of victory in 2000 (though not in 2002).

Che, I am not shocked that there are biased calls and outright fraud in American elections. Both parties appear to be guilty, but most of the fraud, at least by reputation, appears to have been committed by Democrats. Big city machines really "produce" the vote.

This said, I am still amazed that many Democrats cling to the belief that Gore actually won the election but for a Republican Supreme Court. I suspect these same people are unaware that the news media conducted their own recount after the election using all possible standards to count chads. Regardless of the standard chosen, in a statewide recount, Bush won Florida.

So, Bush won the election in truth regardless of the Supreme Court intervention.

The problem I see for the nation is that Gore did not act like Nixon the last time this happened. Nixon could have called for recounts in several very close states and could have thrown the '60 election into chaos. He chose to not do that. For this reason, in part, he was later elected president.

I think Gore may never be elected president because of the ill will he created in Florida. The Republican base is highly motivated to defeat this man if he is ever renominated by the democrats.

	20-11-2002 05:24									#50
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i still think bush is a dolt...if republicans can be stubborn in their opinions of clinton then i might as well be the same way towards bush...petty i know

	20-11-2002 05:33									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Chicago elections aren't all the dirty anymore. Haven't been since the Daley machine was destroyed with the election of Mayor Jane Byrne (sp?). There is still corruption in the elections, but not of the voting dead or missing ballots variety.

And what have you been smoking...

	20-11-2002 05:35									#52
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The State AG is a Republican. The AG of the US is in office because of this activity, and surely wouldn't be so stupid as to deliberately throw light on his own illegitimacy. My info, while pulled largely from Greg Palast's writings, is echoed in the findings of the US election commission. However, they have no authority to do anything about it. That is up to Ashcroft. As I pointed out in a later post, that information formed the basis of the NAACP's lawsuit against the State of Florida, which was settled out of court when Florida agreed not to use the list anymore. It then used the list a few months later. If you could be arsed to follow the links previously provided you might make yourself aware of theft of the Presidency. Simply because someone you like is in the office is no reason to ignore what happened. I don't like Gore any better than I like Bush. It pretty much doesn't matter who the President is, I'll hate him. But the process was violated, and that makes this different.

You must live in a very grey world if you believe that every single person in the Federal and Florida dept's of Justice are corrupt. But even if that was so, where is the civil case? And dont give me any crap about the NAACP's 'case', there was none. Do you think they would have 'settled' if they had any real evidence of anything. I watched some of the 'investigations' into the black-disenfranchisement, after speaking, most of the witnesses went next door to tell their space-abduction tales. Maybe you can show us all the ballots that include a place to mark down ones race.

	20-11-2002 05:59									#53
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 i still think bush is a dolt...if republicans can be stubborn in their opinions of clinton then i might as well be the same way towards bush...petty i know

I have always said good things about many of Clinton's policies, US and foreign. On job performance, he consistently received favorable marks.

The split between Republicans and Democrats is over his abuse of power, his abuse of women and his lying under oath. Democrats either say this never happened or that Republican presidents are equally as guilty.

Let's give the Clinton presidency some space. I believe he will be given high marks and low marks along the lines I just suggested. His was a flawed presidency.

	20-11-2002 08:21									#54
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Bush may not be stupid , but he's definitely unwise.

	20-11-2002 08:37									#55
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Is it really relevant if Bush is stupid or not? It may be more important that he's morale and socially aware.

Bush is the worst president you've had for 50 years IMHO.
Whats really funny is that america now has a monarchy, with G.W.Bush son of his presidential father, you have to admit he was only nominated because of his father.. who probably pulled a few ropes to get him there.

I hope the Democrats win against Bush with a big majority in your next election, they need to get their act together and forget about clinton .

Bush shows his ineptitude and inexperience by saying one thing and doing another.. he keeps changing his mind over issues such as Iraq (wether to go to war or wait for UN backing) as well as with any other decision.

Bushites (an apt name) have a hard time defending him, its clear from this forum. (sorry i had to get that joke in)

Right wing politics is fast getting out dated, the USA needs to forget its communist paranoia and move a jump to the left (it mostly seems to assume any social left wing policy is communist .. things aren't that black and white)

Maybe you need to think about reducing federal power, giving more state power, especially seeing such a split in state politics.

I hope for the US' sake it can find a worthy president for its great peoples, John F Kennedy seemed great , despite a couple of flaws.

Be afraid if you are small green broccoli vegetable, they are next for the chop after suddheim ....

	20-11-2002 09:20									#56
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JFK was one of our worse presidents ever

have you actually read about him?

Jon Miller

	20-11-2002 10:54									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Ming And what have you been smoking...

Oh, I dunno, actually living in Chicago and having friends who actually participate in the election process might give me some insight on the local elections.

SpenceH, if you are illegally denied the vote, for what do you sue? How do you quantify damages?

It does not matter if there are ethical people within the Florida or Federal DoJ if their bosses refuse to sign off on an investigation. If Ashcroft says "No!" then no one who wants to keep their job is going to start a criminal prosecution.

THE FEDERAL ELECTIONS COMMISSON found the exact smae problems that the BBC reported. These findings formed the basis of the NAACP lawsuit, not the testimony of people who were denied the vote. And yes, they would have setled if the State of Florida agreed to what the NAACP wanted, which was for the state to stop using that illegal list. Why continue wasting resources the organization can use elsewhere to continue pressing a case the State had already conceded? Do you think a judge would look kindly on having its time wasted to preside over a case in which one of the litigants has conceded to the other side?

Look, I've given you the evidence. It's up to you to actually refute it. Not by slandering people, but with actual facts.

Here is the actual BBC broadcast.

	20-11-2002 11:10									#58
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As I stated before, I haven't ever really been impressed with Bush.

He doesn't LOOK particularly bright. I certainly don't understand his charisma... Clinton I understood. Doesn't mean I liked Clinton, but I understood why people found him charming...

Anyway, a lot of people seem smitten with Bush. Maybe because during this time of "patriotic" fervor, a more sophisticated person would come off as being too moderate. People want somebody they can relate too, not who they feel is smarter than themselves. Smarter people just seem haughty to the average folk I guess.

Anyhoo, so Bush has charisma... so did Hitler. So did Castro. So did Ho Chi Minh. The Republicans here will surely say I'm exaggerating, but remember... People in Phnom Penh thought the Khmer Rouge could NEVER come to power. The Russian upper classes didn't think the Communists had a chance. Italians and Germans thought cooler heads would prevail and that the Fascists wouldn't come to power. In the end, all of these people were left to flee or to fight... too late. On a lesser scale, the Brazilian middle class was sure the military would listen to reason after the deposition of the President in 1964. I'd rather be safe than sorry.

	20-11-2002 11:12									#59
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quote: Right wing politics is fast getting out dated, the USA needs to forget its communist paranoia and move a jump to the left (it mostly seems to assume any social left wing policy is communist .. things aren't that black and white)

We've already forgotten our communist 'paranoia'. Though it seems you haven't. We kinda like our 'right-wing' individualist politics and don't need people from other countries tell us our preferences in OUR democracy are wrong.

quote: Whats really funny is that america now has a monarchy, with G.W.Bush son of his presidential father, you have to admit he was only nominated because of his father.. who probably pulled a few ropes to get him there.

And Al Gore was son of a famous Senator. What is your point?

quote: Maybe you need to think about reducing federal power, giving more state power, especially seeing such a split in state politics

Which is a.... REPUBLICAN issue! LOL! You bash Republicans and then hit on their main issue as what we need!

quote: I hope for the US' sake it can find a worthy president for its great peoples, John F Kennedy seemed great , despite a couple of flaws

One of the worst Presidents in the history of this state, bar none.

quote: If Ashcroft says "No!" then no one who wants to keep their job is going to start a criminal prosecution.

Except for opinion, you have any proof to back up the wild assertion that Ashcroft stopped an investigation when there were facts that pointed towards illegalities.

	20-11-2002 11:17									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: If Ashcroft says "No!" then no one who wants to keep their job is going to start a criminal prosecution. Except for opinion, you have any proof to back up the wild assertion that Ashcroft stopped an investigation when there were facts that pointed towards illegalities.

It is a matter of court record in Florida, and a matter of Federal record via the FEC, that illegalities occured in Florida in the 2000 and 2002 elections. Why has neither the State AG nor the Federal AG started an investigation into this? Because they benefited from it!

Notice, I didn't say that Ashcroft actually quashed an investigation. No smart Assistant AG is even going to start one, at least not until a Democrat is in the WhiteHouse, and if it's Al Gore, probably not even then (since he won't want to look like he's dishing out payback).