19-11-2002 20:46									#1
	Time for democrats to admit they underestimated President Bush Inflate your Upload Space

Bob Woodward has been making the rounds of the talk shows touting his new book Bush At War. What is particularly interesting to me about that has been Woodwards descriptions of Bush's dominance of the cabinet meetings.

Similarly, in Bob Novaks column we get more evidence that Bush is the guy in charge.

There has been a lot of slurs aimed at Bush's (lack of) intelligence and that it was Cheney who was actually running the country. Given these new indications that Bush really is a "leader" (if not a rocket scientist), isnt it time for the democrats (and some republicans) to admit that they've underestimated Bush's abilities and to re-assess him in this new light?

	19-11-2002 20:50									#2
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"Misunderestimated" him, you mean. I agree that it is false to say that the man is stupid.

	19-11-2002 21:01									#3
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I would say the Dems underestimated his appeal, and more importantly, overestimated THEIR appeal.

-Arrian

	19-11-2002 21:07									#4
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I had this discussion elsewhere, many like to call bush "Dumbya", and other such nonsense, while in the mean time, he gets what he aims for, his popularity is through the roof, and he shows REAL leadership.

If he is so stupid, and he keeps thwarting them, what does that make him opposition?

	19-11-2002 21:30									#5
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Well I think the difference is that this is more than just opinion one way or another. Now there is clear evidence that while he's not an 'intellectual' he is a leader (just as Reagan was).

	19-11-2002 21:41									#6
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No, he's no genius, neither was Clinton, Bush I, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, LBJ, JFK....

I think the point is made along those lines, we didn't elect him to be a genius, he's there to lead the nation.

	19-11-2002 22:38									#7
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Many people do underestimate the man. He isnt stupid, but he is also not intellectually curios, which is not a good thing.

He is personable and likebale, but places too much emphasis on strict loyalty (look at how he treats Schroeder now) as the most important virtue.

The Americna people have always liked him, even when he came in he had an approval raing higher than what he got in the election.

All this said, I still despise this admin. from the depths of my soul, and think that in 10 year, IWe all will be paying a high price for their actions today.

	19-11-2002 23:23									#8
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I'm not a democrat.

And I did not underestimate. I'm still not impressed with President Bush's actions.

One thing I will admit is I thank god (sometimes satan) that Bush is in the white house and not Gore. But there are many other men that could have handled this terrorism thing better. Republicans are really starting to piss me off. The only thing I like about republicans is keeping the goverment small and not passing a bunch of bullshit laws. But here they are doing that very thing with regards to national security.

	20-11-2002 00:29									#9
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Preface: Choices for Americans in the last Presidential election were pathetic.

If the ability to use tragedy to undermine the bill of Rights and boost one's popularity, all while deflecting attention away from woeful economic performance and disdain for the environment is what now passes for leadership, then I guess Bush was uderestimated.

BTW, no one I know ever thought Cheney was in charge. But Bush Sr's ongoing vendetta against Saddam has always struck me as suspicious...

	20-11-2002 00:32									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm not a democrat.

Great! A lot of liberals have put out a lot of crap about how stupid Bush is and how he's just a puppet. AFAIK this is the first time we get to see just whats really what in the White House. Bush is the one pulling the strings (as he should).

	20-11-2002 00:36									#11
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I couldnt stand Bush when he was campaigning in 2000, but now I have to admit he has shown real leadership. He is also more down to earth than Gore.

	20-11-2002 00:43									#12
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There's the small matter of him actually having lost the 2000 election, but we'll pass over that...

	20-11-2002 00:46									#13
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	20-11-2002 00:48									#14
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quote: If the ability to use tragedy to undermine the bill of Rights and boost one's popularity, all while deflecting attention away from woeful economic performance and disdain for the environment is what now passes for leadership, then I guess Bush was uderestimated.

this is exactly why the Dems and Reps are one and the same- carreer-mongering figureheads. The Dems should have took a pit-bull approach and attack the Bush administration on all of the fronts you mentioned, but instead they acted like emasculated pups whose only concern was a nice, safe issue like prescription meds for the elderly.

	20-11-2002 00:55									#15
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH 0.000001

Truth not troll. Simple statement of fact.

	20-11-2002 00:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies There's the small matter of him actually having lost the 2000 election, but we'll pass over that...

He didn't lose. He got the most electoral college votes.

	20-11-2002 00:59									#17
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Like most people who push this crap you seem to have a strange version of 'truth' and 'fact'. Bush collected the most electoral votes, ergo he won.

	20-11-2002 01:00									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia He didn't lose. He got the most electoral college votes.

I'm forced to disagree with both your statement and SpencerH's. He only won Florida by dishonest means - to wit, the illegal disenfranchisement of literally thousands of black Floridian voters

	20-11-2002 01:01									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies Truth not troll. Simple statement of fact.

You seem to belong to those group of people who simply don't understand the US election system.

	20-11-2002 01:06									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies I'm forced to disagree with both your statement and SpencerH's. He only won Florida by dishonest means - to wit, the illegal disenfranchisement of literally thousands of black Floridian voters

Do you have any evidence of this?

	20-11-2002 01:13									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Do you have any evidence of this?

Evidence that you would accept? Probably not. I can quote a book, but it was banned in the USA for being 'unpatriotic'.

I have online links, if you like. Will CNN do?
http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS...orida.election/
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/nation/934283
I won't quote for fear of taking it out of context. If you don't accept these that's fine, I can't force you to. We may just have to agree to disagree.

	20-11-2002 01:17									#23
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Sorry, missed one...
http://www.boston.com/news/politics..._Florida+.shtml

	20-11-2002 01:20									#24
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It was two years ago. The country has moved on long ago.

	20-11-2002 01:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies Evidence that you would accept? Probably not. I can quote a book, but it was banned in the USA for being 'unpatriotic'. I have online links, if you like. Will CNN do? http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS...orida.election/ http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/nation/934283 I won't quote for fear of taking it out of context. If you don't accept these that's fine, I can't force you to. We may just have to agree to disagree.

You're right, I won't accept that 'evidence'. All you have are allegations, nothing concrete. If Bush's people really had illegally excluded these voters, don't you think we would know about it by now? You know the dems would love to charge him with something like that, so why havent they? Because they have no evidence.

To say he didn't win the election is just silly.

	20-11-2002 01:24									#26
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It was two years ago. The country has moved on long ago.

Do I see an admission in the face of evidence, or am I being too optimistic...
Anyway, that isn't the point. The fact is that the wrong man is in the White House, and while I don't doubt Al gore could have (and most likely would have) done a much worse job than Bush, that doesn't make Bush right.

	20-11-2002 01:25									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Clear Skies Do I see an admission ...

That I just don't care anymore and got tired of listening to this long ago? Yes, you do.

If Gore had won his home state, Florida wouldn't have mattered at all.

	20-11-2002 01:27									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia You're right, I won't accept that 'evidence'. All you have are allegations, nothing concrete. If Bush's people really had illegally excluded these voters, don't you think we would know about it by now? You know the dems would love to charge him with something like that, so why havent they? Because they have no evidence. To say he didn't win the election is just silly.

I'd like better reasons why you don't accept it. I'm quite prepared for you not to, I'd just like some more justification. And some evidence the other way, if possible.
And IIRC there was a case brought to the attention of the Supreme Court where someone did try and do something about it. Palm Beach Springs Electoral Commission, IIRC. The people who delivered that report that you won't accept, for reasons you haven't given. If an official report isn't enough for you, what is?

	20-11-2002 01:28									#29
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And one more link - I really gotta do my essay...
http://www.insightmag.com/main.cfm/...yid/158418.html

	20-11-2002 01:28									#30
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Wonderful evidence! Did you actually read any of it or were the titles enough?

Please be sure to show me where on any ballot (spoiled or otherwise) it has a space to indicate race.

Try again.