19-11-2002 21:10									#1
	Ascetic Virtue - Who here likes this SP? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Ascetic Virtues to my mind is one of those mid-game hidden gems of an SP.

At first glance folks look at AV and think primarily of the population restriction relaxation. +2 pop points translates on averge to an additional 10 factors of production.

While that is significant, I personally love the extra +1 Police. Almost every faction can make use of this extra police effect.

Everyone knows it a godsendd to Yanger as he gets to the +3 (double police effect) whilst running Police SE. Thats up to 9 pop points quelled by simply having 3 non lethals.

Morgie benefits from the pop limit raise but also in SMAX can run FM and have a Brood Pit to get to -2 police thereby allowing him a base for Noodles and Choppers without having to put in a Punishment Sphere.

Santi goes to +2 Police running anything other than Police meaning she can use 3 units for police effect (6 pop points quelled if units are nonlethal method units. Wow!!!)

All other factions save the Angels in SMAX go to +1 Police which allows 2 units for police effect (4 pop points quelled using non-lethal methods) when running SE choices other than Police or FM.

What this means is AV is a wonderful SP to have when going on the offensive and taking base after base. 2 or more (depending on faction) non lethal units in the freshly captured base often times more than easily quell all resistance and allow the newly aquired base to get off the ground running. 1-1-1 NL's are to my mind the cheapest and easiest form of drone control in the game.

You normally hear little on this little gem of an SP but I think its utility is well worth it between the extra pop points and the cheap drone control whats not to love other than it comes a bit after the major goodies in the early game.

	20-11-2002 01:05									#2
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Yep, it's a beaut!!! Not a game breaker like the CF or Cloning Vats, but a good solid boost to your faction's power.

	20-11-2002 01:50									#3
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I've changed alphax.txt so AV comes earlier, so that it actually has a use- especially for Morgan.

	20-11-2002 02:17									#4
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Ogie, don't forget that as Santi running Free Market with the Ascetic Virtues you no longer get drones for military units outside your territory. It's a great way to earn money and do a little killing at the same time.

	20-11-2002 02:21									#5
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yup, i love it. especially great for free market, allows you to have a sizeable air force in bases with brood pits (which are also great )

	20-11-2002 04:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Anun Ik Oba I've changed alphax.txt so AV comes earlier, so that it actually has a use- especially for Morgan.

If you have Morganic bases pushing the hab limits before you get to Planetary Econ, you aren't building enough bases.

	20-11-2002 05:49									#7
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quote: Originally posted by TKG yup, i love it. especially great for free market, allows you to have a sizeable air force in bases with brood pits (which are also great )

I would say only for FM. Due to those overly powerful brood pits, you can reach +3 Police by various means, reducing the value of the Ascetic Virtues and the Police increasing SE choices as a whole.

Brood Pits are bad and unbalancing.

	20-11-2002 12:12									#8
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Yes, it's one of my favorites, and is right on my research path most of the time.

	20-11-2002 22:02									#9
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Gotta love it. I always play blind research, which means you don't really get to plan to get any specific SPs. There are some I'd prefer over AV, but I'm never unhappy finding it on my build list.

	21-11-2002 01:34									#10
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From a design viewpoint, I think Ascetic Virtues is a good SP. It's not too powerful, but if properly used it's a good bonus for any faction.

I always thought the late game SPs were far too powerful. Does anybody know of any mod or hack that can allow you to change the powers of the SPs? I think at least we should have SPs that eliminate negative SE effects for all the SE choices, making them more valuable to some factions than to others.

	21-11-2002 03:30									#11
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Brood pits are pretty powerful, but they come LATE in the game, and they are on a side of the tech tree that is rarely researched. I think they are fine... they allow a faction running FM to have 1 drone if more than 2 military units supported by that base are out of territory, and they give a police boost to any other non FM running faction. You would need to build a brood pit in each and every base to have the benefits fully realized.

Maybe +1 police would be better... but I think the lateness of these facilities somewhat change the unbalancing affect. Punishment sphere bases are even easier... and come earlier in the tech tree.

I never get bases above size 4 with Morgan until planetary econ anyways... and then this is a important tech. It comes just at the right place in the tech tree too- hybrid forests make large bases very productive.

	21-11-2002 07:30									#12
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Love the Ascetic Virtues!

As a true Hiver, I play Police State, Planned, [Knowledge] or [Power], and Thought Control. This SP has helped me out a lot!

	21-11-2002 10:21									#13
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I always use wealth with the Hive. You gotta maximize that industry bonus, and the effective +1 energy every base ('cept your capital) is really nice too.

	21-11-2002 11:39									#14
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quote: Originally posted by BustaMike I always use wealth with the Hive. You gotta maximize that industry bonus, and the effective +1 energy every base ('cept your capital) is really nice too.

Yep, Police / Planned / Wealth, with crawlers and lots of Librarians is an early game juggernaut. Use police to take care of drones, crank out the crawlers. If your infrastructure can handle it you can even go for a GA pop boom.

	21-11-2002 14:33									#15
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too bad Industry Bonus is Topped at 5 Planned Eudamony % Domai=> Baaaad Time

	21-11-2002 16:24									#16
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Its definitely a project I have great appreciation for. Especially when Spartans (already +1 Police) and Hive (designed for police state). And relaxed pop limit means more energy and minerals brought back to the base.

I hold high regard for everything about it from its effects to Yang's blurb related to it.

	22-11-2002 14:28									#17
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Yang's blurb is indeed very great...

As for me, AV is one of the SPs I want to have, but not must-have. Every bonus in SE settings is very good and must be considered, as it can often make your SE choices more flexible.

	23-11-2002 03:00									#18
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I am also a great fan of the Ascetic Virtue.

Mostly for the reason most of you mentioned ( + police for Yang, Santiago or any other under FM).

But this SP really shines in the hand of the UN peackeeper.

It magnigies one their best bonus => +2 pop per bases augmenting it to +4 per bases !!! ==>> SUPER BASES !!

And this in turn , further ehance their other bonuses.
More pop equal more votes for planetary governor and more importantly for a blietzkrieg diplomatic victory.

Also, by allowing so much more pop per bases and with the bonus to police, it greatly reduce the penalty in effiency for the UN, first because they can get more energy with less bases and second because they will get less drones thanks to the police bonus and the fact that they need less bases.