19-11-2002 22:46									#1
	Frigates, Ironclads & Privateers Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Do we want to start building Frigates now, or wait intil we can build Ironclads (at higher shield cost)?

Also, do we need Privateers?

E_T

	19-11-2002 22:56									#2
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IMHO, if we'll ever need warships it'll be to escort transport ships with troops. However, we probably won't be transporting troops by sea until amphibious strikes become possible, which is at the end of the industrial era.
In other words, I think we've got plenty of time to make a decision, though it's best to start the discussion right now.

	19-11-2002 22:58									#3
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Considering the continental nature of most war, I don't see a large navy as necessary. However we do need some offensive ships to prevent ampibious invasion, particularly later. Privateteers are fun to play with and they can be used to blockade a port.
Aggie

	19-11-2002 23:27									#4
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The Privateers could also go and hunt down the ships that are currently exploring and make them have maps with a lesser value.

E_T

	19-11-2002 23:40									#5
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I'd like to argue against the use of privateers for blocking a port. I only see a use for such a tactic in the occasion that a certain civ is completely surrounded by other civs with which it is at war, and we'll want to isolate that civ to give it a disadvantage. In other cases, when we are the ones at war with the civ that we want to block, we might as well use regular ships.
Second, I think the war we'll be fighting against Rome will be an amphibious war. After we're done with Greece and England we'll probably skip Russia and take care of the troublesome Rome first, and we'll most likely want to strike straight at the heart of their empire.

	19-11-2002 23:44									#6
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None of these ships can be upgraded.

We are on the bigest contientant, so there's no need for overseas affairs.

I sugest that two Privateers could be used to sink annoying AI transports without declaring war but that real war ships can wait for Battleships with Mass Transportation.

	19-11-2002 23:49									#7
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Some are saying that we should take over the Zulu gems to corner the gems market. Such a war might be worthwhile - after all, it'll be a cheap and easy war and we'll gain exclusivity over another luxury.
Our SMC may want to at least prepare for such an option, should it pass.

	20-11-2002 00:33									#8
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Last edited by realpolitic on 20-11-2002 at 00:42

	20-11-2002 00:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by E_T The Privateers could also go and hunt down the ships that are currently exploring and make them have maps with a lesser value.

:qUnless we go agains just galleys, privateeers have less then a break even chance it, we breakeven against the cheaper caravels and galleons, and even if we sink it, each tile they discover is worth only 1/6 gold, to one civ, and there are about 8 other civs who can go their merry way building improvements or military.
In a game against one civ, war need only deprive the other civ from developing faster then your civ. Against many civs we should fight only when:

1) We gain more than we would in peacetime.
OR
2)In fighting a tech leader, we deprive them of considerably more than the cost of building his arms.

As far as ironclad vs frigates, Ironclads are so close by, and we need city impovements, and prepare for war with Germany, we can wait, exept to build a fleet against Germany, if the war happens before or soon after Seam Power.

	20-11-2002 00:43									#10
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We don't need these things. Our victory will be sealed in land campaigns.

	20-11-2002 02:00									#11
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In a war with Germany we would of course not require naval ships and it would be a waste of resources to build up a large naval fleet when we should be building more land units for the offensive.

I would really suggest that we start building up transport ships to load up and send off to Zululand. The benefits or cornering that market are staggering. We would be the wealthiest, most luxury-filtrated nation on earth! I do not expect much resistence there, either....

	20-11-2002 02:21									#12
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No over seas adventures. Zulu is too small to be a space ship rival. In fact of the lost civs, only Japan has the potiental to become a space ship rival, and that is pretty far down the list.

The threats are:

1. Germany
2. England
3. Greece

	20-11-2002 02:42									#13
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I'm for taking care of Germany, England and Greece first too, but once we're done with them we can go and prove that diamonds are an Apolytonian's best friend.

	20-11-2002 02:46									#14
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I agree all our threats are over land, so why build extra boats right now. besides, the AI rarely build sea vessels to attack when it can directly attack you by land.
Both frigates and Ironclads have a very short life in the game and really don't need to be built unles your involved in a war where sea power is important, which is not the case here.

	20-11-2002 03:58									#15
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Frigates and Privateers will be outclassed by Ironclads before we could build a signifigant fleet. We may want to rush-build one or two Ironclads if we need some coastal protection and can find the money, but no more than two of those should be built.

	20-11-2002 05:44									#16
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I don't see the need.

	20-11-2002 07:30									#17
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So we've already set in stone that building the space ship is the goal we're aiming for? I thought that our victory goal had not yet been decided, of course maybe I missed it 30 or 40 threads back....

	20-11-2002 09:11									#18
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We do need to produce Frigates, I think, but not necessarily Privateers. Frigates can, and will be good for blockading foreign ports, blasting up coastal and land defenses, and hitting enemy transports while we expand further our glorious empire. Germany, England, and Greece will be crushed on the land, but by sea they can be isolated.

	20-11-2002 10:48									#19
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quote: Originally posted by History Guy We do need to produce Frigates, I think, but not necessarily Privateers. Frigates can, and will be good for blockading foreign ports, blasting up coastal and land defenses, and hitting enemy transports while we expand further our glorious empire. Germany, England, and Greece will be crushed on the land, but by sea they can be isolated.

Why Frigates? Ironclads are better in every way, and they're only one tech in the future. Since we have Iron and are guaranteed Coal, I think any navy beyond Galleons should wait till Steam Power; sure, Ironclads will be more expensive to build, but at least they won't be obselete the day they sail out of the dock.

	20-11-2002 21:12									#20
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Iron Clads also become obsolete.

Privateers have the hidden nationality allowing quasi-wars against under protected Caraveles/ Galleons so a couple of them remain usuable until Combustion and subs, when we will want to swap them.

Frigates & Men of War are obsolete for everybody who has coal before they can be built.

Iron Clads still become obsolete quickly. If we were on a smaler contienant (say any of the lost AIs) I'm be in favor of building them. But with us being on such a large contientant, even those aren't needed and we can wait for Mass Production and Battleships for ships that rule the seas.

	21-11-2002 16:07									#21
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hi ,

why should we not have a couple , .......

ones outdated we can always disband them in a city where shields are needed , .....

have a nice day

	21-11-2002 20:19									#22
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Only a fraction of the shields that when into building the obsolete unit is returned when scraped.

	21-11-2002 23:58									#23
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Only a fraction of the shields that when into building the obsolete unit is returned when scraped.

hi ,

thats true , but it is still something , so why not disband them for a building or unit in a far away place , .....

it really helps and can sometimes be of big use

have a nice day