20-11-2002 07:08									#1
	What is up with all the cheating by the computer Put an end to popups!

I typically play Monarch/Emporer level games and I've noticed that typically I've owned about 50% of the land by the Industrial Ages and the other 7 civs have the other 50%... but it never fails, some little country the size of Isreal with 3 cities is 7 techs ahead of me in the game. I thought maybe it was the level I was playing so I decided to play chieftain and see if I can get a 7 or 8 tech lead on everyone... No, can't do it. I am convinced that there is something going on (dare I call it cheating)... I miss the old civ2 days where I crushed the opposition with my armor while they were chuckin' spears (only because I earned it). For those who are going to ask, yes I research, yes I have all the improvements, no I don't start on an island, etc... no responses are really necessary, I just wanted to vent. Now back to civilization... what's that, I feel another anurism coming on... (BTW we need a face that shows someones head expolding, because that is how I feel)

	20-11-2002 07:28									#2
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The computer plays fair up through Regent (actually Regent gets a minor cheat in that the computer can do an AI-AI trade at a loss). In fact, you get major advantages at cheiftain and warlord.

You didn't say that you trade tech. If you don't trade you will fall behind. Even at the lower difficulties.

	20-11-2002 07:32									#3
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I don't like to trade, I am an Isolationalist... also I miss the days of conquering cities and torturing there scientists for techs

	20-11-2002 07:52									#4
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As warpstorm said, it's not cheating. Three or four technologically backwards civs can catch up to the leader if they are willing to trade techs. This is true whether the 3 or 4 civs are AIs or a mix of AI and human. Instead of rushing to judgment on "AI cheating," examine your own gameplay choices to see if you could do something to change the circumstances.

Catt

	20-11-2002 07:58									#5
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I could...

a) Trade more
b) Conquer more
c) Steal more

I still think the AI is too liberal in its trading practices. Most countries would not give away the Techs that make them superior (unless your the US selling secrets to China... China did lose an embassy over it to a rouge cruise missile though.)

	20-11-2002 08:06									#6
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How about trading a less critical tech for significant amounts of gold (lump sum and per turn) which can cripple the scientific research budgets of those behind you? Particularly effective towards the end of ages, when new era tech values jump significantly.

Don't try to compare Civ 3 gameplay to real life -- they are entirely different.

Catt

	20-11-2002 08:12									#7
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Acording to the original post I am the one that is behind on Emperor level, on Monarch I can do ok with trading (at least keep even) but any higher than that and it seems like the A.I. will not trade with me at all, even if my reputation is good. Anyone else experience this? Plus, it is tactically unwise in gameplay or real life to trade away your edge... I really don't blame them for not wanting to trade if it was with everyone and not just me. That is why on the harder levels I am typically I isolationalist of circumstance, not choice.

	20-11-2002 08:12									#8
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Hey I am glad to see some fellow non traders. I will do it, but I prefer to not talk to the AI (I know that is bad).
Anyway the research cost factor is a function of the world size and the level of the game for the AI. Humanplayer it is always 10 for the level.
Human 10 all levels cost factor
Ai 20 chief
" 12 warlord
" 10 regent
" 9 monarch
" 8 emp
" 6 deity

Map size
tiny 160
small 200
std 240
large 320
huge 400
The higher the base cost the more science needed.
The number of active players (more players the more it takes)
The number of players that already know it (more the less it cost).
The bigger the map the more the science needed.

	20-11-2002 08:15									#9
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Not talking has got me into more wars than being aggressive. I always hang up on them with the "Not a chance button" and it seem to upset them. By the modern era it is Fortress America vs the World!

	20-11-2002 08:37									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Unconquered Acording to the original post I am the one that is behind on Emperor level, on Monarch I can do ok with trading (at least keep even) but any higher than that and it seems like the A.I. will not trade with me at all, even if my reputation is good. Anyone else experience this? Plus, it is tactically unwise in gameplay or real life to trade away your edge... I really don't blame them for not wanting to trade if it was with everyone and not just me. That is why on the harder levels I am typically I isolationalist of circumstance, not choice.

Okay. It is customary to be behind the AI (even smaller, inferior AI civs) on Emperor and Deity. But in most cases, players tend to catch up by the Industrial Age (to which your address your first post). If you are not substantially caught up by the Industrial Age (and barring a pretty bad start), I would look to your early game choiches and how they have dictated your late game circumstances. Since 1.29f it has become much harder to trade techs from behind, though not impossible. But I think the importance of trading skills increases as you move up the difficulty levels. It is easier to get by as an isolationist at lower levels -- if you are being forced to be an isolationist by "circumstance," you need to focus on how to change the cruel fate of circumstance.

But it is not always unwise to trade away an "edge." A game edge comes in many forms, only one of which is a tech edge. Trade (i.e. gold or gold enablers) and diplomacy might also frequently be a game edge. If you judge your power in a game based on technology advancement, I think you are misapplying game concepts.

Catt

	20-11-2002 12:38									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Unconquered Not talking has got me into more wars than being aggressive. I always hang up on them with the "Not a chance button" and it seem to upset them. By the modern era it is Fortress America vs the World!

I like it.. I have been to know to play games like that at times. Cap anything that moves.

	20-11-2002 15:06									#12
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Does it matter, if I say "Not a chance" or whether I'm trying to figure out another deal by a counter-proposal, and then terminating the negotiations?

	20-11-2002 16:21									#13
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I don't understand why people have a problem with AI"chaeting" the AI can't beat a decent human player without a bit.

look at chess a much simpler game, supercomputers only sometimes beat humans

	21-11-2002 19:42									#14
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Not a problem at all but I really like to see a list over AI-'cheats'

I know that there are both science and production bonuses. It will also know the locations of your units and future resources...

What else? Could anyone kindly point me in the right direction for an 'AI-cheat FAQ' ?

	21-11-2002 21:17									#15
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My opinion:

AI cheats a lot but it is of course stupid like a traffic light.

So, you have to brake its cheating, and attack strongly its stupidity.

It would be better if AI didn't cheat,I know sometimes it's frustrating.

Gunter

	21-11-2002 21:25									#16
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I don't understand why people have a problem with AI"chaeting" the AI can't beat a decent human player without a bit. look at chess a much simpler game, supercomputers only sometimes beat humans

Actually, I'd bet your average computer could beat almost every human alive. Only some GM's would be able to beat it, I'd bet. Chessmaster 9000 has a rating of 2700+.

	21-11-2002 22:08									#17
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Not a problem at all but I really like to see a list over AI-'cheats' I know that there are both science and production bonuses. It will also know the locations of your units and future resources... What else? Could anyone kindly point me in the right direction for an 'AI-cheat FAQ' ?

While to my knowledge there is no complete list on AI-"cheats", many of them are discussed in various strategy articles. Check here for a list of "must read" threads.

Edited: URL formatting

	21-11-2002 22:26									#18
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger I don't understand why people have a problem with AI"chaeting" the AI can't beat a decent human player without a bit. look at chess a much simpler game, supercomputers only sometimes beat humans

I`d like to know where you got that information

	21-11-2002 23:09									#19
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I personally like the fact that the AI cheats, since it makes it put up more of a fight. Of course i'd love it if the AI could put up a good fight with no cheats, but we really don't have that kind AI available yet. So any sort of cheat that'll make it harder to beat without unbalancing things is fine in my book.

	22-11-2002 00:20									#20
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Did not they say the only cheat in the game is its knowledge of the resources locations?

	22-11-2002 01:20									#21
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Not a problem at all but I really like to see a list over AI-'cheats' I know that there are both science and production bonuses. It will also know the locations of your units and future resources... What else? Could anyone kindly point me in the right direction for an 'AI-cheat FAQ' ?

The science and production bonuses, as well as additional handicaps, are laid out in the editor. Just spend some time in the editor (there are human "cheats" on difficulty levels below Regent).

Putting aside the difficulty level handicaps, there is a pretty good compilation of actual AI "cheats" and often-asserted AI "cheats" which have been largely disproved over at CFC. I don't link from one forum to another, but after you've had your fill of 'Poly for the day, you can do a search at CFC for a thread by a poster named "TheNiceOne."

Catt

	22-11-2002 02:11									#22
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Did not they say the only cheat in the game is its knowledge of the resources locations?

The one "cheat" I have seen confirmed (and the only one) on this board by Firaxis is that they AI has no "fog of war." If the map is black, it doesn't know what's there, but if it's seen the area then it will always know where all the units are.

	22-11-2002 17:15									#23
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Catt , I'm aware that the list of actual 'cheats' is rather short, I just want to see a nice little chart which spells them out, loud and clear. Also including the difficulty-level specific handicaps/bonuses(why spend time with the editor if someone has done that already)

What is CFC?

	22-11-2002 18:40									#24
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quote: Originally posted by werdhertz I`d like to know where you got that information

what are you talking about. The information is common knowledge. Depp Blue beat kasparov but then deep Fritz got beat by Kramnick.

So if huge mainframes programmed to play a relativley simple game lose to the best players how is the AI in civ3 gonna cope

	22-11-2002 23:00									#25
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quote: Originally posted by bongo Catt , I'm aware that the list of actual 'cheats' is rather short, I just want to see a nice little chart which spells them out, loud and clear. Also including the difficulty-level specific handicaps/bonuses(why spend time with the editor if someone has done that already) What is CFC?

I've never seen anyone share a ready-made file that details all of the editor-enabled handicaps (though I've thought of doing that myself once or twice, for just such an occasion). Maybe I'll whip up just such a FAQ re: changes in difficulty level next time I'm stuck with my laptop but in a place inapprorpiate to actually play Civ.

But, spending an hour or so playing around in the editor -- just looking at the available levers, toggles, and choices -- is well worth the time invested. I can pretty much guarantee you that you will learn several things about the game that you didn't know / understand before.

And I've never seen a chart of "cheats."

CFC is Civilization Fanatics Center, or civfanatics.com, another fansite. TheNiceOne's thread that I referenced is the closest thing I've seen to what you're looking for.

Catt

	24-11-2002 03:09									#26
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Straight out of the PTW guide. The only AI cheat is that it knows the world map. It knows the location and content of every tile. It is affect by the fog of war.
It does not gang up on human players and does not know AI form Human.
Remember that the bonus that the AI has at higher levels are not cheats, they are handicaps.
No combat aids.
So no need for any list. Since it know the location and contents of all tiles, it will know you have left a city unguarded.

	24-11-2002 04:05									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Unconquered I could... a) Trade more b) Conquer more c) Steal more I still think the AI is too liberal in its trading practices. Most countries would not give away the Techs that make them superior (unless your the US selling secrets to China... China did lose an embassy over it to a rouge cruise missile though.)

You will always fall behind if you don't trade. That applies to the AI as well, so that means it is not a cheat. Indeed, trade has historically been a strong force in the development of new ideas and inventions.

The Americas were isolated by oceans. Sub-Saharan Africa is on a high plateau with rivers generally not navigable from the coast to the interior. These geographic areas of human habitation were left behind of the philosophical and scientific advancement of the Eurasian civilizations.

China stopped trading knowledge in the Middle Ages, and fell behind as a consequence. Japan stopped trading as well, but was forced back open by Europeans, then immediately absorbed the science of the West. They subsequently became a military threat to the established political order.

	24-11-2002 04:06									#28
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dp

	24-11-2002 05:43									#29
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badams52

About the Firaxis confirmation that the AI has no "fog of war." I missed that; if you can remember where you saw it, could you please post a link. It's not that I doubt you, but that's an *incredible* cheat and I'd like to get the words straight from the horse's mouth.

Thanks,

Peter

	24-11-2002 06:42									#30
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Straight out of the PTW guide. The only AI cheat is that it knows the world map. It knows the location and content of every tile. It is affect by the fog of war. It does not gang up on human players and does not know AI form Human. Remember that the bonus that the AI has at higher levels are not cheats, they are handicaps. No combat aids. So no need for any list. Since it know the location and contents of all tiles, it will know you have left a city unguarded.

Right! And even with this well-known cheat, the AI plays tactics only about as well as the worst human player, maybe not even that good.

Edit: From my understanding and experience, the AI only knows the Fog of War, not the entire map. See post below.