20-11-2002 16:02									#1
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Dun u all hate it when the AI bombs your battleships, destroyers etc from the safety of their coastal cities and u can't do anything about it?

Is there any way to counter this apart from having an aircarft carrier nearby? I have not tried it but can fighters do air superioirity missions from carriers and protect nearby ships? Or does it only protect the carrier like cities?

I would like to see an anti-aircraft naval unit, perhaps the AEGIS cruiser can take on this role.......in real life I remember the AEGIS radar to be an anti-missle and anti-aircraft capable.......thus it makes sense to be able to launch missles or at least VULCAN cannons to shoot down opposing aircraft doesn't it?

Let me know what you all think!

	20-11-2002 17:17									#2
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Jets on a carrier protect the carrier and one square out I think. A bit like bombing around a city.

in civ2 AEGIS cruiser had aint aircraft ability.

	20-11-2002 20:12									#3
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I have only seen jets protecting the carrier, so I put the whole group on one square.

	20-11-2002 20:33									#4
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Thanks for the recommendations......but it still irks me to have to stack ships with carriers so that they can be protected from air attacks.

Still feel that an anti-aircraft naval unit should be included! More realistic and less of a hassle.......imagine fortifying one of those things near your coastal city to help out in defending against enemy bombers!

On a side note, the interception animation could be improved with like missiles or something more spectacular rather than just 2 planes going 90 degrees with one another.

	20-11-2002 22:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by aahz_capone Jets on a carrier protect the carrier and one square out I think. A bit like bombing around a city.

I think it is more than one square radius. If this were true, air superiority around cities would not protect the outer ring of the cities at all and would leave them open for the AI to bomb with impunity. I don't think the protection area changes when at sea.

Anway, this is a reason to build more carriers. A well-coordinated attack takes a painful amount of micro-management, but it usually proves worth it to over-prepare from my experience anyway.

	20-11-2002 22:17									#6
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Ships already have a lot of power, and aircraft is relatively weak in Civ3 compared to how it is in real life, so I like it the way it is. Having an AA ship would just render aircraft even more useless. Consider it part of the challenge to keep your ships from getting blown to smithereens by the AI.

	20-11-2002 23:19									#7
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Air Superiority radius is 1/2 their operational range (2 for fighters, 3 for jets).

The trick is to know whether they are on AS or not, since when you Right-Click on the carrier, the fighters are listed with "Activate". You don't know whether they are on AS unless they do not come up in the move sequence.

	20-11-2002 23:36									#8
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Since they do not have lethal bombardment, I am not concerned about them.

	20-11-2002 23:55									#9
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jaybe is right.

Also, aircraft fail their bombing runs alot.

Is there a significant difference between having a carrier for air defense and having some other specialized ship for air defense? =)

	21-11-2002 00:00									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Madine Is there a significant difference between having a carrier for air defense and having some other specialized ship for air defense? =)

only if you were to consider that the price of a carrier combined with at least two fighters on Air Superiority is would probably be more in comparison to a single ship built for that purpose and that a carrier slows down a whole fleet due to a slower movement rate.

	21-11-2002 01:27									#11
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Sea battle leaves a lot to be desired in Civ3 anyway. I think that if a ship attacks another ship, nearby carriers should scrable their planes to engage them, like in real life. It would be great if you could get big navel battles going, involving multiple ships and planes at the same time. A good start at this might be making a naval equivelant to armies. Well I can dream, can't I?

	21-11-2002 01:47									#12
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Remember that the "Chance to Intercept Air Missions" is only 50% (Editor: General Settings: Various Unit Abilities). I have changed mine to 67%. Of course, stealth units default at 5%.

Interceptions usually DESTROY the bomber unit. To make it so hordes of bombers are just ineffectual against your ships, increase their defense strengths. To reflect the AEGIS Cruiser's air/missile/undersea defense capabilities, I raised its defense to a 12, making it almost as good an escort as a Battleship (defense of 16 in my little universe).

	21-11-2002 06:11									#13
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do carriers have less movement?

Surely that cannot be right. I served in the navy. And the carriers are the fastest ships in the navy.

	21-11-2002 06:15									#14
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Firaxis, as good as they are, blew this one. The main purpose of the AEGIS cruiser is air defence. The radar system can fire on more than 100 targets simultaneously. The sailors joke that in a real war (with Russia or somthing) they would basically put the ship on auto and sit back and watch. AEGIS should be for air defence, and destroyers should be for sub killing.

	21-11-2002 06:35									#15
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Yep the AEGIS cruisers are also designed to take the hits before the carrier. I don't think they really understood how vital the AEGIS cruiser really is to the navy.

	21-11-2002 08:12									#16
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In real life carriers carry more fighters or are at least multi-role as in they carry out most of the bombing missions. Bombers are rarely based on them.

Bombers to me seems like B-52s basing them on aircraft carriers is not possible in reality.

But in PTW, I use them primarily to host bombers so I can ship off a few carriers and bomb the hell out of the AI and support marines on transports invading them etc.....having 2 fighters out of 4 planes on a carrier to protect the surrounding support naval units like battelships seems like a waste.

Anyhow, my main gripe was that enemy planes would soften up my naval units significantly and the AI would pop out with its warships and sink my ships which by now are red status......it takes only a hit to sink my expensive battleship!

And then they pop back into the safety of their cities and I have to send another unit to fortify around there and chase them.....

I want to bombard AI cities with 3-4 battleships and if there are any planes to soften me up for attack, I want a anti-aircraft ship as support !! I agree that destroyers should be anti-sub as they are more nimble......AEGIS Cruisers are primarily anti-missile and anti-aircraft.

	21-11-2002 08:42									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Baggio I would like to see an anti-aircraft naval unit, perhaps the AEGIS cruiser can take on this role.......in real life I remember the AEGIS radar to be an anti-missle and anti-aircraft capable.......thus it makes sense to be able to launch missles or at least VULCAN cannons to shoot down opposing aircraft doesn't it? Let me know what you all think!

The VULCAN cannons, as you put it, are not made to shoot aircraft from the sky, it is a missle defense system only.

How do I know? I worked on it for 5 years.

Mk 15 Mod 0 Close IN Weapon System Or simply CIWS.

Or, as we liked to call it, R2D2 with a penis.

ACK!

	21-11-2002 08:51									#18
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Don't they have other anti-aircraft missile systems?

Then what are the navy ships or systems primarily used for air defence? All ships should have them right? Or do specific units have anti-aircraft roles?

Perhaps the designers could come up with a new anti-aircraft unit with anti-sub capabilities.....that would be shweeeeeet....

	21-11-2002 09:21									#19
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i would love to see a B-2 stealth bomber on a carrier in real life...

i think this is a fair trade off.

	21-11-2002 11:49									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Baggio Anyhow, my main gripe was that enemy planes would soften up my naval units significantly and the AI would pop out with its warships and sink my ships which by now are red status......it takes only a hit to sink my expensive battleship! And then they pop back into the safety of their cities

That's exactly what I do when the AI has a better navy - 1. soften with aircraft 2. sneak a ship out of port 3. sneak back into port.

	21-11-2002 12:04									#21
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What about the Phalanx?- which is also called CIWS

Or on my aircraft carrier we also had the Sea Sparrow missle launchers. I wasn't a gunner's mate or anything- I'm not sure. I was an engineer- machinist mate to be exact.

I thought the systems were designed to counter both missiles and aircraft.

Although I still have dreams of mounting a Phalanx gatling gun in my front and back yards for home defense

	22-11-2002 04:31									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident What about the Phalanx?- which is also called CIWS Or on my aircraft carrier we also had the Sea Sparrow missle launchers. I wasn't a gunner's mate or anything- I'm not sure. I was an engineer- machinist mate to be exact. I thought the systems were designed to counter both missiles and aircraft. Although I still have dreams of mounting a Phalanx gatling gun in my front and back yards for home defense

PHALANX and CIWS are the same thing. Gunner's mates actually don't work on Sea Sparrow or Phalanx, they are FC only systems.

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	22-11-2002 05:42									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident do carriers have less movement? Surely that cannot be right. I served in the navy. And the carriers are the fastest ships in the navy.

its right as far as firaxis is concerned. they move one less per turn than battleships and destroyers IIRC.

	22-11-2002 06:18									#24
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser It's right as far as firaxis is concerned. They move one less per turn than battleships and destroyers IIRC.

Anyone who thinks that a "Battleship" is JUST one (or more) battleship has got to be the type that thinks that a "Warrior" is just one individual.

Would you think a Transport unit has NO escort if it could defend itself against an Ironclad??

To me, a Destroyer is a flotilla of ships of various type, based on a core of destroyers or cruisers. Battleship: a heavy flotilla based on a core of battleships. Carrier: Includes a small escort and support ships.

The logistical tail of the carrier unit, along with its having to move against the wind to launch aircraft contributes to its lower movement.

	22-11-2002 08:58									#25
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Interesting concept Jaybe....didn't think if it this way but its logical.

Still they should have some sort of anti-aircraft ability especially carriers, due to its value and cost they wouldnt want to neglect anti-aircraft abilities. At present all ships are defenseless against air attacks.

If not, at least leave it to another specialised ship or escort unit......that would make gameplay more varied and interesting.

	22-11-2002 09:00									#26
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quote: Originally posted by mullenstephen i would love to see a B-2 stealth bomber on a carrier in real life... i think this is a fair trade off.

B-2 is too big & more than likely too heavy. I am not sure but the B-2 would also be too tall to fit in the hangar deck inside of the carrier.

	22-11-2002 09:06									#27
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Hey Tuberski, is the Vulcan cannon the same one they Use in the Jet fighters today. I worked on F-14s as Aircraft Electrician(didnt work on the cannon) & seem to remember the same name used on the Tomcats Gun.

	22-11-2002 09:44									#28
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quote: Originally posted by CorpusScorpius Hey Tuberski, is the Vulcan cannon the same one they Use in the Jet fighters today. I worked on F-14s as Aircraft Electrician(didnt work on the cannon) & seem to remember the same name used on the Tomcats Gun.

20 MM, 6 Barrels, I've worked on the F-16, and I KNOW that they use the same gun, not sure about the F-14.


EDIT: The name of the GUN is the VULCAN, so yes they would be the same.

PHALANX includes the search and track radars and the fire control computer also.

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	22-11-2002 09:53									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Tuberski 20 MM, 6 Barrels, I've worked on the F-16, and I KNOW that they use the same gun, not sure about the F-14. EDIT: The name of the GUN is the VULCAN, so yes they would be the same. PHALANX includes the search and track radars and the fire control computer also. ACK!

Thanks for the rapid response , I did some quick research & it is indeed the same gun. The only difference is the amount of rounds a plane can carry vs. the ship guns (2x)

	22-11-2002 09:54									#30
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quote: Originally posted by CorpusScorpius Thanks for the rapid response , I did some quick research & it is indeed the same gun. The only difference is the amount of rounds a plane can carry vs. the ship guns (2x)

Yep, we could empty our gun in less than 20 seconds.



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