21-11-2002 00:04									#1
	Science Decision and Plan Full PM-box? Change here!

I have decided to keep the science at 60%. I suspect that the AI is researching steam power and hopefully that is keeping them busy. Here is my plan we get medicine and turn around wait until somebody gets steam power. We then trade Medicine to the lowets civ for nationalism and trade med+gold for steam power. After medicine we research Sanitation. This is not yet wriitten in stone but as of now is the policy.
Aggie

	21-11-2002 01:10									#2
	Support Apolyton

I object this decision and the reasoning that neither one of the big four is researching Medicine which backs up this decision, but I respect your decision, and especially the way you announced it in a separate thread instead of burying it in the orders thread.

	21-11-2002 02:01									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I was surprised that nobody objected sooner. It's almost as if everyone fears the great Aggie or something.

That said, I support this decision.

	21-11-2002 02:46									#4
	Got spare money?

Personally, I think we could "bite the bullet" for 3 turns, just to be sure. As it is, with the WF changes that I've made in the save, we'll be making 170 LPT at 60% and losing 29 LPT at 80%. We could also sell THeory to Persia & Iroquois for 17 LPT more. those two combined, we would only be losing 12 LPT at 80%. We might be able to tweek the slider back down in a turn or two and recoop what we would have lost.

Well worth the gamble to make sure we get Medicine first, IMHO.

E_T

	21-11-2002 02:53									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

We still have upgrades that need to be made, money that needs to be spent, and going negative on the off chance that one of the AIs isn't researching Steam Power seems a bit too far fetched. We'll get Medicine first at 60% and still be able to keep up with necessary spending.

--Togas

	21-11-2002 03:04									#6
	Re: Science Decision and Plan Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Aggie ...Here is my plan we get medicine and turn around wait until somebody gets steam power. We then trade Medicine to the lowets civ for nationalism and trade med+gold for steam power. .. Aggie

I have never gotten ANY civ at ANY difficulty level to trade away nationalisim for less than 2000 lytons(actualty gold) + two or three "upper teir" techs like combustion and mass production. The AI guards nationalism like I guard mobile transportation (I never trade it unless I have a compelling strategic reason). I highly doubt that medicine and all our gold will get us nationalism. If we do get it, it will bankrupt us for a turn or two as well as damage our trading position for Steam Power.

Also, if you trade a tech to the lowest (techwise) civ, they will trade it around (to the other AIs) to catch up.

I am not sure if this will really work the way we want.

Mss

	21-11-2002 04:09									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Mss I agree that there is a risk that the AI won't sell nationalism, but since we are committed to the research course we do need to plan like this. We could trade somebody medic+cash for steam and then turn around and trade those for nationalism. It is the fear that a trade might not be possible that lead me to keep the slider at 60% instead of 80%(it was very tempting).
Another item to remember is that we have a GOOD chance of having more than out share of coal that could be traded to recoup nationalism cost. Also remember that in 1.29 there generally is more money running around so basically you get inflation. Still I'm sure it will cost us.
Aggie

	21-11-2002 05:10									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ok, I've looked at this and Aggie's idea sounds workable. 60% science should work out and we can hope to still get Medicine first. As for what to do with Medicine, I'm of the opinion to techwhore it as much as possible, preferably for Nationalism and even Steam Power if someone has it. If not, we'll get whatever we can (hopefully making enough money to effectively give us a discount on Steam Engine).

	21-11-2002 06:04									#9
	Suffering from ads?

I agree that Medicine is our best play, but I don't think we should bother trying to use it to pry nationalism out of another civ. Maniac is right: the AI's guard this tech extremely jealously.
Now, if we needed it to hatch some fancy MPP-based Machiavellian scheme, then maybe it would be worth the price. But otherwise ... I hope we don't get into a military situation where riflemen or conscription (in other words, a defensive stand) are absolutely necessary. Riflemen are too expensive, IMO -- in my games I often bypace them and bid for replaceable parts/infantry anyway.
Of course, we need to check with our military braintrust on this. Do we envision riflemen playing a key role in imminent wars (ie, with Germany)?

	21-11-2002 18:27									#10
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

To Togas
I think you got me wrong. I'm actually assuming that at least one of the big four is researching medicine instead of steam power and is competing with us. I think the chances that we'll lose the race with just 60% science are greater than 50% and in fact, I'm willing to bet that we will lose the race (though we can still get nationalism for medicine from the Aztecs, who I predict will not be the first AI to research medicine nor will they be able to afford to buy medicine from the big four).

To Robber Baron
I have never experienced this phenomenon in any of my games. As far as I know the AI never guards techs and will always sell them if the price is right. AFAIK, the price is determined only by the tech's cost factor, the map's cost factor, the AIs attitude towards you and the number of other civs that you're in contact with can sell you the same tech.

	21-11-2002 20:27									#11
	Got spare money?

Shiber, I've seen the AI guard tech, but when they do it's simply "Can't Be Done". Most often it's a tech that they have a monopoly on that has a wonder.

But both Nationalism & Steam Power sometimes are guarded when they have a monopoly. But with several civs with Nationalism it won't be.