21-11-2002 08:40									#1
	Radar Artillery Is Too Slow!!! Enter the AD-FREE zone

Hi all.....anyone thinks radar artillery is too slow? It only has a movement of 1 and is way laggin behind modern armour and mech infantry!

Everytime I try to bring them out from my cities to bomb AI cities and join up with my other offensive units on the outskirts, they take forever to arrive and by that time I would have amassed enough Modern Armour etc to assault the city.....albeit with heavy casualties.

I feel that Radar Artillery is sort of a tracked or towed arti piece as evidenced by its graphics. It also seems more like a MLRS (Multiple Rocket Launcher System) where rockets are fired instead of normal arti shells.

It's speed should be bumped up as modern artillery has to move fast after firing to avoid being countered by anti-artillery radar and fire systems. IMHO, it should be have movement of at least 2-3, its weakness of being destroyed or captured is enuff of a disadvantage already.

What do you all think?

	21-11-2002 08:53									#2
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Sure, the LAUNCHERS are tracked, but you're talking about an artillery-type unit. It's the AMMUNITION (rockets) and logistical tail that slow things down.

If all you had to shoot was one load of rockets, ....

	21-11-2002 08:58									#3
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Logistics are also very important for modern armour, all the tank shells and fuel trucks needed to sustain them.

PTW assumes logistics as a "hidden" factor, thus resupplying artillery units and modern armour units should be handled the same as they are roughly equal in terms of supplies needed.

In terms of speed, a movement rate of 1 is simply too slow to called it tracked or mobile.....hell, even the settler walks the same distance the radar artillery can move in one turn!

	21-11-2002 10:45									#4
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I agree. I find that bumping up their movement rate to "2" makes them far more useful during the later stages of the game, and isn't particularly unbalancing. It's really kind of strange that it wasn't that way to begin with, logically speaking.

	21-11-2002 11:26									#5
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Actually, this is also what I did. My assumption was that cannon and artillery are both "Horse drawn units" and should get a movement of 1 and 2 respectively (artillery is slightly more mobile than cannon). I brought back the trusty howitzer, available with motorized transport, which is moved around by truck-thus a movement of 2 or 3 (can't remember which), then the radar artillery, which I assumed was self-propelled, and so gave it a four (to be fair, though, I've bumped up ALL the movement rates!)

The_Aussie_Lurker.

	21-11-2002 11:44									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

1 is way too slow. I give the MLRS (which is what it looks like) 2-3 movement.

I would really like a long range arty or rocket unit - a Scud missle? I think someone did create a Scud unit but I'm not sure how it works...

	21-11-2002 18:53									#7
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Great to see people agreeing with me on this one.....

Hopefully Firaxis can do some updates to gameplay like tweaking some unit values to reflect some aspects they missed out, in addition to the bug fixes and MP issues.

I still think 3 movement is the ideal one.....puts it on par with Modern Armour so that they can guard it as they go together on staqcked movement to the AI city outskirts and then........kabooooom! hahhaha.......

	21-11-2002 21:02									#8
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If you give an artillery unit more than one movement point, and then give it the blitz ability, can it make multiple bombard attacks per turn?

	21-11-2002 21:54									#9
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I preferenced my RA to movement of 3. It does not unbalance the game. But I still don't use them much except to disband in newly captured cities.

Why 3? 2 moves and 1 bombard so they can move with a Mech stack. Or if they have a long distance to go they can keep up with MA/tanks. But mainly it was to make unit management easier and have stacks of MI and RA.

I don't know if their bombard rate is good or should be increased. How does RA compare to tanks in the real world in bombard ability? I don't know, maybe someone on the forum does.


== PF

	22-11-2002 01:38									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Baggio Hopefully Firaxis can do some updates to gameplay like tweaking some unit values to reflect some aspects they missed out, in addition to the bug fixes and MP issues.

I'm pretty sure Firaxis has the unit values right where they want them and wouldn't expect any changes in standard Civ 3 units (I suppose there could possibly be a tweak or two to PTW units as they weren't yet subject to the widespread balance-testing of a public release). Many game function decisions are based on gameplay and balance issues, not realism (as should be obvious).

But that's what the editor is for! You can easily change the movement rate of units via the editor (as many have done).

Catt

	22-11-2002 04:14									#11
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hi ,

in real live its slow too , .......

have a nice day

	22-11-2002 06:09									#12
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Try the AU Mod.

	22-11-2002 06:26									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sinapus,
Yes, 2MP + blitz would give it 2-bombardment potential. I've done it with modern naval units.

	22-11-2002 08:54									#14
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How about an anti-aircraft unit to protect units out in the field then? This would give then some sort of air cover instead of being defenseless against air attackes when moving deep into enemy territory.

I find myself frequently depleted and attacking AI Cities with red or yellow units and my cities with fighters are so far away....

The AI does not seem to use aircraft as much as humans do but still it would be nice to have some sort of combined arms attack force....but that would make it more like an RTS game like C&C wouldnt it?

	22-11-2002 10:30									#15
	Tired of ads?

Large rocket batteries, even mounted on large wheeled trucks, are not going to move as fast as tanks.

Movement of 2 seems ok though.

2c

	22-11-2002 11:42									#16
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firaxis has never changed unit stats in any of their civ3 patch as far as i am aware. there need to be some serious rebalancing of units, but I expect them not to change anything in PTW either.

while I don't think changing radar artillery mov to 2 is a bad thing and may make the unit more interesting. I am fine with the way radar artilley is right now. Im a big time bomber and Im not too disturbed by it.

	23-11-2002 05:39									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Going by their past record, it would seem so.....

I prefer to play with the original rules so hopefully they will get around to it someday.

	23-11-2002 06:07									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Try the AU Mod.

Try Patch Suggestion MOD.

	23-11-2002 06:41									#19
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Try the Beta Tester Mod located on the PTW disc.

	23-11-2002 09:33									#20
	Got spare money?

I expected them to do some balancing when ptw would omce out, but i guess firaxis thought it was not necessary, or either they didnt have time.

	23-11-2002 23:23									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II I expected them to do some balancing when ptw would omce out, but i guess firaxis thought it was not necessary, or either they didnt have time.

hi ,

well it all depends what you mean with "balance" , one player wants the artillery to move 3 with a range of 5 , the second player wants a move of 5 and a range of 3 , ......

actually the best is that we all refine the little details ourselfs in the editor

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 01:56									#22
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It appears what you really want is a new unit class, mobile artillery. Mobile artillery would be available at moterized transport. Stats would be 0-0-2/10-2-2. The upgarde would be modern mobile artillery, available at synthetic fibers. Stats would be 0-0-3/14-2-2. These units would be used to push the attack along with the armor/inf and MA/MI respectively.

Radar artillery should be left as it is, as mostly a defensive unit/city reducer. Perhaps an extension of the range would be in order, to say 3 or 4, to justify its appearance so far down the tech table.

	24-11-2002 01:57									#23
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Another consideration is how the AI will uses a land unit that moves and bombards in the same turn. Right now only naval units have that ability, all land bombard units have a one movement.

	24-11-2002 02:03									#24
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I think that just move 2, needs Oil and Rubber would be OK.

Things like move of 3 (which means move 2 tiles and then bomb), are just unbalancing.

	24-11-2002 06:18									#25
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quote: Originally posted by player1 ... Things like move of 3 (which means move 2 tiles and then bomb), are just unbalancing.

ESPECIALLY considering that the AI doesn't use artillery en masse in the first place...

	24-11-2002 17:05									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe ESPECIALLY considering that the AI doesn't use artillery en masse in the first place...

hi ,

, it depends at what level you play , and one way to let them make use of it is to let them capture some of yours , then the AI really makes use of them , .....

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 17:37									#27
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I have yet to see a game where the AI uses artillery en masse/intelligent. So making it a move 2 unit, is IMHO very unballancing.

But hey, everybody is free to (mis)use the editor as they see fit

	25-11-2002 03:58									#28
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On the other hand, with move of 1 they are pretty much useless.

I mean it's it better to buy 50% more basic Arties and get much better hitting chance.

3 Arties is better then 2 RAs