21-11-2002 08:54									#1
	Can helicopters be based on ships in PTW? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Can helicopters be based on ships (transports) in PTW?

I would so lurve to see choppers landing Marines deep into enemy terrority from the coast instead of just being limited to landing on the coast.

That would be the fast moving military tactics of the Modern Era....instead of fighting wars slowly thru roads like the previous ages.

BLITZKIEG !

	22-11-2002 02:50									#2
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No, there is a restriction that units that can transport other units can't be transported (except armies - I haven't experimented with them enough to know why).

	22-11-2002 08:49									#3
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Okie....thanks for the info.....

Just felt that the modern rate of assualt is slow...........not much ways of blitzing an AI civ fast to punish it......especially if it is not advanced and lacks roads etc

	22-11-2002 11:37									#4
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Modern rate of assault is slow. I want Afghanistan style action. The helo should operate off the carrier. Airdrop paratroops and have them attack the same turn. Then Airscoop (TM) them on the next turn.

	22-11-2002 11:45									#5
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm No, there is a restriction that units that can transport other units can't be transported (except armies - I haven't experimented with them enough to know why).

easy, other games like Red alert you see people abusing this all the time, you put the infantries into apc, then pack a apc into a transport then send them off. normally where you can fit 5 infantry now you can fit 25.

Does anyone think helicopter just doesnt perform its duty for the price you have to pay? Best unit it can deliver is a infantry, cant land on flat lands, but can reach any city around the globe and carry only one passenger at a time too!

	22-11-2002 11:51									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Carver Modern rate of assault is slow. I want Afghanistan style action. The helo should operate off the carrier. Airdrop paratroops and have them attack the same turn. Then Airscoop (TM) them on the next turn.

I dunno which kinda civ games you guys are playing but my modern war games are pretty darn sick with 6-7 cities falling in hands back and forth. I don't think thats any slow....

paratrooper, another unit i feel is overpriced. In the age where all your empire is railed, you hardly need a quick deploy unit unless ur road network is heavily bombed out. They dont do too well in offense department either. I gotta agree airdrop ability has to come with a price, but making them 8/8/1 or 9/9/1 would make em slightly better. I think special infantries like marine and paratrooper are too weakend for any use in era of mech inf and modern armor.

	22-11-2002 11:55									#7
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I just can't take them out that quick. It usually takes 2 or 3 turns of bombarding each city.

	22-11-2002 15:50									#8
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Make bigger stacks

In addition, logistics support by a small crew of workers to build/repair the road/rail net is real useful to maintaim momentum.

	23-11-2002 00:13									#9
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I mod the paratroopers to make them more effective... otherwise, the airdrop quality isn't enough to compel their use, when you can create a tank in less time and drive it to wherever it is you need to go.

It would be cool if the helicopters were more effective... think about how critical they were in Vietnam. They were capable troop transports (based on land and on carriers) and also served as gunships (this feature would be nice - being able to use a chopper as a tank killer)

	23-11-2002 00:19									#10
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quote: Originally posted by WarpStorm No, there is a restriction that units that can transport other units can't be transported (except armies - I haven't experimented with them enough to know why).

Hrm, I've always been annoyed with the fact that you can't airlift armies (and settlers, workers, and artillery for that matter). Anyone know if they've changed this in PTW? I haven't gotten Radio in my first PTW game yet.

	23-11-2002 00:53									#11
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No Traelin,
if you want to airlift special/premium/extra-value stuff, you will have to make the changes in the editor.

I, on the other hand, have just DISABLED airlift by Tanks, Panzers and Modern Armor (still enabled for MI)! Also made Paratroopers available with Flight (instead of Advanced Flight).

	23-11-2002 00:58									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I just can't take them out that quick. It usually takes 2 or 3 turns of bombarding each city.

whats the point of bombing ai for couple of turns? other getting population killed and city improvement destroying, the ai units almost always regain all of their hp in one turn. Like Warpstorm saig. Bigger stack, Bigger artillery, one turn BAM!

	23-11-2002 01:09									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II whats the point of bombing ai for couple of turns? other getting population killed and city improvement destroying, the ai units almost always regain all of their hp in one turn. Like Warpstorm saig. Bigger stack, Bigger artillery, one turn BAM!

If I'm not mistaken, if you bomb their barracks, you can keep them from healing immediately.

With the auto-bombard feature, I could see myself using harassing bombard tactics more often. Reducing the city to size one and destroying all improvements makes the city less productive with regards to revenue and military unit production, and this impedes the enemy's ability to make war.

I'd still like better helicopters, though. I'm a little disappointed Firaxis didn't acknowledge the inherent weakness of the unit as reported on all the forums for the original Civ3 and do something to improve it. There's not a lot to be done with it in the editor - they need to reprogram the unit to make it capable of more diverse airlifting and also give it some offensive capabilities to make it more closely represent the roles that the UH-1, Apache, and Blackhawk (just a few examples) play in actual military campaigns.

	23-11-2002 01:38									#14
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I never personally bother even researching advanced flight because I find helicopters and paratroopers useless.

At least in my SP games so far. MP might make them useful, even at their present abilities.

	23-11-2002 02:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by piratebrun I never personally bother even researching advanced flight because I find helicopters and paratroopers useless. ...

I did the same with Marines for awhile. Then I decided to build some and FIND a use for them. I now build them all the time.

Paratroopers (AKA Light Infantry) are useful in a universe where MA and MI can't traverse unroaded mountains and jungle. I gave Tanks, Panzers, MA and MI "Wheeled" attributes.

	23-11-2002 02:33									#16
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In standard game, I see no use for Helicopters or Paratroopers.

Marines use is limited to situations where an amphous assult is required.

	23-11-2002 05:23									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II I dunno which kinda civ games you guys are playing but my modern war games are pretty darn sick with 6-7 cities falling in hands back and forth. I don't think thats any slow.... paratrooper, another unit i feel is overpriced. In the age where all your empire is railed, you hardly need a quick deploy unit unless ur road network is heavily bombed out. They dont do too well in offense department either. I gotta agree airdrop ability has to come with a price, but making them 8/8/1 or 9/9/1 would make em slightly better. I think special infantries like marine and paratrooper are too weakend for any use in era of mech inf and modern armor.

If you're talking about a conventional, cross-land invasion - yes, stacks of armor can move the borders dang quick.

But we need special operations style targeted strikes behind enemy lines. I envision doing recon flights from a carrier of the enemy coast. I then send in paratroops to strike at targets of opportunity: an undefended/lightly defended city, units in the open, kidnapping/killing workers, and destruction of infrastructure. ...Afghanistan style, mobile, quick, do what you want, when and where you want.

	23-11-2002 09:39									#18
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn In standard game, I see no use for Helicopters or Paratroopers. Marines use is limited to situations where an amphous assult is required.

required? you can still nuke the city to death... u have an option but maybe not the one ur looking for

going back to bombardment, i take two turns in bombing. One turn is dedicated to destroying population overall (less pop = less city bonus) and next turn is totally aimed for softening up troops. I think unts heals way too fast w/o barracks in city anyway.

	23-11-2002 13:46									#19
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I like bombing the cities to under 7 so they don't have any city walls or city bonus'

It really does help to smash the hell out of the city for 3 or 4 turns. Of course nearly all the buildings are destroyed, but oh well . I admit I have trouble taking out size 25 cities. I suppose I could do it with like 50 tanks. But that is too time consuming to move that many units. I prefer using like 10 tanks.

	23-11-2002 13:57									#20
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Choppers and Marines make an interesting combo. Go ahead, leave that island city lightly defended...

'Look Ma, no ships.'