21-11-2002 11:23									#1
	carthage, the new france Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

its a bird,
its a plane,
no,
its captain obvious.

I have really enjoyed the sp PTW.

First game is a regent one with carthage.

Logic says if you liked france you will love carthage!

The better UU is a major advantage. Not only does it help with the early conquest, the golden age comes right when you need to drop settlers all over the place.

I currently have around 600 points in 200 CE. Yeah for Carthage.

	21-11-2002 11:36									#2
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Hated France, loving Carthage. Could just never quite bring myself to play the French. Maybe it was the pink color, or Joan of Arc, or just them being French... No offense to any who might be French of course.

	21-11-2002 12:14									#3
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I think the Numidian Merc is the real key to making Carthage so much more useful than France. I mean, the Musketeer was pretty, uh, useless is the best word I can think of.

In the games I've played, I can say that the Num. Merc really helped my empire to expand. I cannot ever recall an instance playing as France where I could say the same about the Musketeer.

	21-11-2002 12:23									#4
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I struggled with carthage. Although I did not go to early war. Their unit seemed to cost a lot to build. And I could not build spearmen instead.

I like the ottomans though.

	21-11-2002 12:51									#5
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The key is in the traits, grass hoppers...

	21-11-2002 13:19									#6
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bah! those traits suck

As I've show in my other thread. I seem to do well with religious, and military. Even if I don't go to war much I like mililtary. I just seem to do better with these civs. Sure starting position is a factor, but I truelly believe that military/religious is best for my playing style.

also to note in my first ever IP internet game with a human player. I played Japan and completely thrashed the human who played Carthage.

	21-11-2002 13:26									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Many things can happen in a duel.

What helps a civ get up and running?

What helps a civ take a tech lead?

What helps a civ in the long run?

	21-11-2002 23:43									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Any traits can be used to beat the AI, so that one uses AB or BC is not meaningful. Neither is one player using any civ beating another. This is due to start positions and player skills not being equal. This is why anecdotal evidence is not valuable. Just because so and so did or saw such and such does not make it universal.

	22-11-2002 00:54									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident bah! those traits suck As I've show in my other thread. I seem to do well with religious, and military. Even if I don't go to war much I like mililtary. I just seem to do better with these civs. Sure starting position is a factor, but I truelly believe that military/religious is best for my playing style.

Me too, I absolutely agree. I MAY be able to swing between religious/scientific, but I can't do without Militaristic. It simply rocks for my playstyle.

	22-11-2002 01:02									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I struggled with carthage. Although I did not go to early war. Their unit seemed to cost a lot to build. And I could not build spearmen instead. I like the ottomans though.

Sure, it costs a lot, but it lasts twice as long as a spearman. At 2/3/1, you can keep it as long as you normally would a Pikeman, which is to say at _least_ until Muskets.

In my most recent game, I'm at Infantry and still have a buttload of these guys laying around, because I just don't need to upgrade them yet.

Also, at 2 attack, they are as good as Archers to attack, though not quite as good as Horsemen, due to Retreat.


All that said, I don't use them for triggering a GA. I hate Despotic GAs and try to hold off until I switch to either Monarchy or Republic, at which point, a Wonder combination has probably set one off anyway.


I really like Industrious/Commercial. Extra money and Extra production. Sure, I miss Religious, but I think the double-speed workers make up for that, along with decreased corruption.

The big bonus that Carthage has over France is, they don't start next to Germany. I hate Bismarck.

	22-11-2002 01:03									#11
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Besides, with the Med.Inf/Guerilla upgrade path for Warriors, just use those for defense until you can get Mercs built.

	22-11-2002 02:58									#12
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I avoided the early GA with Carthage in my latest game, and that was with 8 other civs on my cont. Of course that was probably because I mass produced them to have a strong military. That coupled with being on a huge map probably made the AI lest inclined to attack. Got my GA later after a much behind Rome declared war on me. Dropped them off on his island and won a few battles easy to get a late mideval GA. I wasn't sure about Commercial at first, but it seems to work pretty well with how I play.

	22-11-2002 09:06									#13
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HAIL CAESAR! The Romans are the best balanced.....!!

Didn't they sack Carthage or assimilate into their empire? Sorry but my history fails me....

	22-11-2002 10:27									#14
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The last two games I have played I have been right next to Carthage. They are really pissing me off, even though I end up anahilating them.

They get a 3 defense unit right off the bat. How is that fair? Very expensive to take them out early. And the fact that the AI cheats makes Carthage even worse. I have repeatedly watched a settler and a merc walk across the map, plunk down a city, an right as soon as the city is built a second merc appears in it the very same turn. How the hell to take out 2 3-defense units before iron is found? Piss me off.

This of course means I will have to play them next time .

	22-11-2002 11:31									#15
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Yay, Numidian Mercenary. The defense of a Hoplite with 2 attack. Only problem is the golden age CAN come to early. OTOH, the Mercenary allows you to feel very secure while expanding.

I suggest expanding with the Mercenary, but no going to war (if possible) until into the Middle Ages. And if you get attacked earlier, at least you can defend yourself.

	22-11-2002 11:33									#16
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Regent, large world, medium continents, random everything else. I become Greece and I'm stuck on a continent with Carthage, no one else.

I was intimidated, didn't do an anything rush. Didn't get Great Library, behind in everything ....

I have a bad feeling about this game, and I don't like Carthage at ALL right now.

	22-11-2002 12:22									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Any traits can be used to beat the AI, so that one uses AB or BC is not meaningful. Neither is one player using any civ beating another. This is due to start positions and player skills not being equal. This is why anecdotal evidence is not valuable. Just because so and so did or saw such and such does not make it universal.

finally, someone who makes sense, I was hitting my head on a brick on another forum. Its refreshing to hear this, even tho its not from the same thread.

quote: I think the Numidian Merc is the real key to making Carthage so much more useful than France. I mean, the Musketeer was pretty, uh, useless is the best word I can think of. In the games I've played, I can say that the Num. Merc really helped my empire to expand. I cannot ever recall an instance playing as France where I could say the same about the Musketeer.

Difference factor IS the musketeer VS numidian. Musketeer is a UU of a Musketmen, already a useless unit since it is twice as costly as it predecessor, the pikemen. and the only advantage is +1/+1... Why would you shell out twice the cost for +1 defense if you can have 2 slightly lesser unit? And to have a UU as that unit on top of that is not helping. Finally adding an attack! a useless trait when most unit defense is creeping toward at least 3 or more really doesnt help.

While I would prefer to have cheaper Hoplites, If you think of Numidians as a Pikemen UU with +1 attack with same cost its not that bad. And to top of that, you get them MUCH more earlier. We are talking a whole era ahead. Nice.

quote: HAIL CAESAR! The Romans are the best balanced.....!!

I'd kinda agree, The best UU IMO is legion and Samurai. they are well balanced and you get most performance for your money...

	22-11-2002 21:09									#18
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I am also quite fond of persia's immortal 4/2/1 swordsman.

	22-11-2002 22:29									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Chuckles The last two games I have played I have been right next to Carthage. They are really pissing me off, even though I end up anahilating them.

I just drew Egypt on a Random start.
Guess who the only two neighbors are that I can get to...
Yep, Greece and Carthage.

/shudder

	22-11-2002 22:45									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The best UU? German Panzers!

The third movement point is just... great, given their ability to "blitz"...

Well, okay, they come a little late in the game, but who cares?

	23-11-2002 01:05									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by ducki I just drew Egypt on a Random start. Guess who the only two neighbors are that I can get to... Yep, Greece and Carthage. /shudder

excellent.. once I beat the greeks without hardly lifting a finger on one of my games. If you take them out extremly extremly early and bottle them up by occupying their squares, they're pretty much weak and you can move in to finish em whenever you want