21-11-2002 14:03									#1
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What should be the our research order in the ancient era?

My proposal:
1. Bronze Working (for Numidian Merc. and Colossus)
2. Ceremonial Burial (for temples)
3. Writing -> 4. Literature (for the GL)
5. Mysticism -> 6. Warrior Code -> 7. Polytheism -> 8. Monarchy (for Monarchy, duh!)
9. Pottery -> 10. Map making (if we are near the water)

We must research Currency before The Republic, because swithing to Republic before marketplaces is the shortest way to bankrupcy.

I'm unsure about Iron Working. It is important to see where is iron on the map, but when should we research it? Hopefully we can trade it, but...

Obviously the order can change depending on the map and/or contacts with AI or human civs.

	21-11-2002 14:35									#2
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Good thinking, we have our first proposal for the Science Minister to ponder

Iron working is not as important for us as it is for the rest of the civs. We can defend ourselves more than adequately with Bronze working and use Archers for offence. We should fit it in somewhere though.

The early and strong UU allows us to tailor our science towards growth as opposed to researching for defense purposes.

	21-11-2002 19:12									#3
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quote: Originally posted by redstar1 Iron working is not as important for us as it is for the rest of the civs. We can defend ourselves more than adequately with Bronze working and use Archers for offence. We should fit it in somewhere though.

Iron working is not important for us to use it (in the beginning) but to know where can we find it on the map. We certainly need it later and we don't want to see some other civs building cities near every available iron resource, do we?

This is why I'm undecided about iron working.

Also if the map is going to be archipeleago Map Making must be a higher priority than normaly.

	21-11-2002 21:37									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Tiberius What should be the our research order in the ancient era? My proposal: 1. Bronze Working (for Numidian Merc. and Colossus) . . . I'm unsure about Iron Working. It is important to see where is iron on the map, but when should we research it? Hopefully we can trade it, but... Obviously the order can change depending on the map and/or contacts with AI or human civs.

Sounds 'bout right to me.

	21-11-2002 22:17									#5
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I think that knowledge of iron working brings with it one other advantage: the possibility of denying another civ iron. If there is a supply in an unsettled area between the two of us, and we know about its existance first, that means we can get to it sooner and cut them off from it. If we could deny one of the war-monger civs iron, that makes our life all the easier.

Other than that, I think the layout looks good. We need to get a science minister in place so he can set the paths, as it were.

	21-11-2002 22:44									#6
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Tiberius :

I mostly agree with what you said, but I don't think we should research writing and literature so soon, because I want to get to monarchy quickly.
We should research Writing and Literature that early only if we have a science agreement with the roleplayers (or Trip's Team if good relationship with them is reasonable given the circumstances), and if they look for the path to Monarchy.

We shouldn't go for Iron Working too quickly. We can imagine a faraway Civ could sell it to us (in the hope we help weaken a common neighbour or something), or we could buy it from the AI.

Monarchy will definitely help us grow, with a substantial amount of workforce and a reduced corruption. If we can get to it early (i.e beeline), we'd have a considerable boost in the ancient era.

	22-11-2002 04:55									#7
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After we build a few marketplaces we should go straight for Republic, we'll have muskets to fend off warmongering Knights before we know it and they'll be going .

If we are on a landmass w/o a human team we should resaerch pottery first so our cities' population BOOMS.

	22-11-2002 05:30									#8
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Personally I dont go for monarchy, I go for Republic, Monarchy is usually the government of choice of a warmonger.

	22-11-2002 05:37									#9
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Monarchy needs to be moved up in the priority. We will need it to grow.

Sometimes it's good strategy to research a tech that the other's are not researching. But I guess that's a better strategy later in the game.

We will get Iron Working pretty early no matter what. With all the other Civ's going for it...it'll be offered in deals.

	22-11-2002 10:31									#10
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Since it looks like we're not going to be Religious ( ) Monarchy is a waste of turns in anarchy, IMO. If we're going to bee-line for a gov, it should be Republic.

If we're Carthage, we'll have the upkeepless Numidian Merc, which will help ease the military cost of Republic.

	22-11-2002 11:33									#11
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quote: We shouldn't go for Iron Working too quickly. We can imagine a faraway Civ could sell it to us (in the hope we help weaken a common neighbour or something), or we could buy it from the AI.

I was thinking about the same thing. We'll be probaly able to gain iron working, pottery, warrior code, etc from trade.

About Monarchy vs. Republic: this is important. We must decide this now, because if we go for Republic, we need marketplaces and thus an earlier research of Mathematics and Currency.

I always go first for Literature and build the GL. If the GL is not a priority, we can postpone literature for a later date.

So, we have 2 big issues to debate:
1. Monarchy vs. Republic
2. Great Library: do we want it?

	22-11-2002 12:55									#12
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Actually 3 issues:
3. What are the techs that we won't trade with others, no matter what?

	22-11-2002 13:43									#13
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My stance on the issues:

1. Beeline for Republic. Unless we are embroiled in a big war, which we should be avoiding anyway. Rep. trade bonuses will go nicely with our commercial trait to rake in some big bucks.
2. I personally like to have the GL even if I am in the tech lead; it just keeps someone else from having it.
3. For ancient era, I think if we somehow get iron working first (which is unlikely), we don't give that to anyone else. Horseback Riding as well.

	22-11-2002 23:20									#14
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OK, here's a short comparison between Monarchy and Republic (at the moment I write, I'm yet undecided between the 2)

code:


Monarchy
Republic
Required Techs
Ceremonial Burial
Warrior Code
Mysticism
Polytheism
Monarchy
Total 5 techs, including 2 very early techs
Alphabet (free)
Writing
Philosophy
Code of Laws
Republic
Total 4 Techs, but no very early ones

Max happiness without lux.
6 people with Temple
No War weariness
3 people with Temple
Low war weariness

Bonuses / maluses
No production malus
Corruption : Problematic
No production malus
Commercial Bonus
Corruption : nuisance

Military upkeep
2 free units per town

4 free units per city

1 gold per unit otherwise
No free unit
1 gold per unit

Rushing buildings
Pay for rush
Pay for rush

Both have merits, from a builder's perspective :
We have reasonable chance to get to monarchy faster, because we have reasonable chance to trade for Warrior Code and Cerem. Especially because Writing takes ages to discover, unlike Mysticism.
However, if we can't trade techs, Republic is likely to be discovered sooner, if we beeline for it (i.e, no Literature).
Happiness is better in Monarchy, esp. with the lack of war weariness, but raising the luxury slider can offset this in Republic.
The biggest problem of Monarchy is gold and science. Except if we have a very large military, Republic will get us more money and science than Monarchy (heck, it's intended to do so), which will be very helpful when we'll rush buildings.

I say we think of this when we know our surroundings : maybe we'll have writing in a goody hut from the beginning, which will mean Republic for sure. Maybe we'll have 2 warmongering teams next to us, which will mean Monarchy without hesitation. If we risk to wage wars for the most part of the middle ages, Monarchy is definitely not a waste of time. If we have good reasons to believe in peace, Republic is the way to go.
After some thinking, I can only say "wait and see"

	23-11-2002 09:31									#15
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I almost forgot our UU has no upkeep. Now republic is a must! If we snach the Great Library we'll be soaring past those warmongering fools.

	23-11-2002 14:16									#16
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Our UU has no upkeep ?
Is this a new thing in PtW, or do I use my UUs so rarely in my games that I never noticed it ?

	23-11-2002 14:34									#17
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I didn't know that, either. Is this really true?

	23-11-2002 14:45									#18
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I think we agree that we should start with Bronze Working.

After that, Ceremonial Burial would be nice, so we could build early temples.

Next:
Writing, Literature, Mathematics, Currency, Philosophy, Code of Laws if we go for Republic
or
Mysticism , Warrior Code, Polytheism, if we go for Monarchy.

Is this OK until now?

	23-11-2002 15:00									#19
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We should research mathematics and currency only if we have more than 2 luxuries at disposal. Otherwise, it's a good plan

	23-11-2002 15:03									#20
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No, the marketplaces are not for the 3rd luxury, but for our treasury. Republic without marketplaces = bankrupcy !

	23-11-2002 22:56									#21
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I have played games over and over and over bee-lining for Monarchy, and I NEVER have a problem researching and making money. I never take more than 6 turns to research a tech and usually more like 4, and I've always got cash rolling in. On the other hand, when I've finally switched to Republic thinking it'll give me this great boost . . . OOPS! less money (or at least no more than Monarchy), research takes just as long, and I've got this humungous nagging happiness problem.

Going from Monarchy to Democracy?
Going from Monarchy to Republic?

Monarchy just has way too many benefits to ignore: especially military upkeep and happiness. If we go to war . . . Correction WHEN we go to war, we'll be thinking the gods that we're in Monarchy.

There: that's my 2 cents. Take it or leave it.

	24-11-2002 01:59									#22
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I've started another game as the Russians today, emperor level. To have chances of surviving, I had to build a big swordsmen force (heavy toll on my despotic economy), despite my 90% tax rate after mysticism.
I beelined for Monarchy, but the AI got it 7 turns before me (and had all other ancient techs except Republic).

I just realized we'll have to have a large military, and the freebies of Monarchy will be a blessing, as well as the lack of war weariness.

Colonel Kraken : how did you research techs in 6 turns max ? Did you have a large military in your game ?

I think we should poll on this issue as soon as we know our starting location. It will basically lead our general action for the whole ancient era.

	24-11-2002 02:02									#23
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Well, I think Monarchy would not be a bad idea.
We should go through revlutions as least as possible, since we lose a lot of time. I would say 3 government changes max.

	24-11-2002 02:19									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Our UU has no upkeep ? Is this a new thing in PtW, or do I use my UUs so rarely in my games that I never noticed it ?

It's special to the Numidian. I've only read about this, though; don't have PTW, so I can't test if it's true.

	24-11-2002 02:39									#25
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Well, if the Numidian Merc has indeed no upkeep, it can have a big influence on our government choice :
They'll be the bulk of our army, and them cost 0 would be incredibly useful for Republic (Numidians are the best defensive units until gunpowder is out there)

However, I didn't see they had no upkeep on Civ3.com. I'll ask in the PtW forum, and I'll keep you in touch about it.
EDIT : ChaotikVisions and UberKruX tell me the Numidian Merc has a normal upkeep. In this case, I'd be more inclined to go to monarchy.

Last edited by Spiffor on 24-11-2002 at 04:58

	25-11-2002 09:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor ChaotikVisions and UberKruX tell me the Numidian Merc has a normal upkeep. In this case, I'd be more inclined to go to monarchy.

Whoops. I must have been remembering a pre-gold comment by someone.

	26-11-2002 14:19									#27
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Well, Bronze Working first is undisputable with regards to our UU. Ceremonial Burial as second is to my taste.

What comes next, I would leave to later times. There is so much that can happen, that it seems rather premature to discuss that right now. Especially the Monarchy or Republic dilemma is just way too deep in the future. Let's wait until we get our first two (own) techs and see what else we can get from other teams.