21-11-2002 14:32									#1
	Cheating in PBEMs Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

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Last edited by Choke on 23-11-2002 at 05:40

	21-11-2002 15:55									#2
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I discussed this in my article on cheating in the first issue of SLM. Basically, while it would be effective in deterring cheating, it strikes me as being something of an over reaction banning people from a site as large and varied as Apolyton or CFC.

On the other hand, the moderator of the PBEM forum could impliment a better targeted version of what Choke suggests by running IP checks on new players

	21-11-2002 17:23									#3
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For ISPs where IPs are recycled, an IP ban is worthless.

	21-11-2002 19:03									#4
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Migh I suggest a two strikes you're out-system? One offence is "acceptable" but a second means banning.

	21-11-2002 21:01									#5
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IIRC, the mods have only perma-banned two people, YYYH and Spink. Even civnation has been told that he can come back if he promises not to go all anti-homosexual again

So I have a hard time believing that the admins would ever adopt your proposal.

Besides, what you are suggesting doesn't actually prevent cheating, it prevents people from cheating again. How does the old saying go? Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. If someone has been caught cheating, other players don't have to let them join in another game.

	21-11-2002 21:02									#6
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One offence is not "acceptable". I think cheating is always unacceptable. However, in some cases, where the cheater admits the action, is sorry for it, and undertakes to promote honesty in PBEM gaming, then the community may decide to allow them to continue in the game(s) they are involved in on a probationary basis.

We need to promote a culture where no self respecting gamer would even think of cheating. IMHO this won't be accomplished if every time someone is caught, most of the players say, " Oh, he's sorry, let's let him continue." This should be the exception, not the rule. In Pavlov's case, he is willing to take part in the debate, even after being caught, and I think that's healthy.

Rather than a strict "one strike and you're out" policy, I think fear of exposure is more effective. I'd like to see more random audits of games by experienced and neutral third parties. While we recently had an unfortunate experience with this in the Mongols game, I think it can work if we have stronger rules about attempting to contact suspected cheaters before going to the forums.

Hats off to Case for his efforts to bring this issue to the attention of the community and to make PBEM cheating unacceptable.

	21-11-2002 21:07									#7
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Boddington is Spink.

	21-11-2002 21:47									#8
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Last edited by Choke on 23-11-2002 at 05:40

	21-11-2002 22:46									#9
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Maybe we could start a self-help therapy group for ex-cheaters?

	22-11-2002 03:10									#10
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Actually, I don't think cheaters should be banned. The forum shouldn't have control who plays in what game. If the people in a certain PBEM want that cheater to play fine, if they don't, fine as well. The forum should however keep track of DLs so we don't get cheaters coming back under aliases. That's my two cents.

	22-11-2002 03:11									#11
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quote: Originally posted by El Awrence Boddington is Spink.

And YYYH also returned under a different name. From what I understand, Markos and Dan didn't want to perma-ban those guys, but were pressured into it by the then owners of Aployton's server.

	22-11-2002 03:15									#12
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Why did they get banded, again? I think I might have heard it before....

	22-11-2002 03:50									#13
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They did something extrodinarily dumb on another of the then gamestats forums (flame wars and mass spamming from memory), and the admin of the Gamestats network decided to make an example of them. From what I've read, had they not been banned, Markos and Dan would have lost the site.

	22-11-2002 05:16									#14
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Some combination of Awareness & Public Humiliation is better than banning, IMO. Why not establish a "sticky thread" that lists Name, Date, & Sordid Details for anyone caught cheating? Sort of a modern version of the "Stocks" of yore.....

(Then all we'd need is a cool new smiley depicting the "throwing of the rotten tomato")

	22-11-2002 05:59									#15
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I like that idea

	22-11-2002 06:41									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Case They did something extrodinarily dumb on another of the then gamestats forums (flame wars and mass spamming from memory), and the admin of the Gamestats network decided to make an example of them. From what I've read, had they not been banned, Markos and Dan would have lost the site.

Hell I did that on these forums back in the day and I didn't get banned.

	22-11-2002 07:27									#17
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Public humiliation sounds like an interesting prospect

	22-11-2002 09:53									#18
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Last edited by Choke on 23-11-2002 at 05:41

	22-11-2002 21:57									#19
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quote: Some combination of Awareness & Public Humiliation is better than banning, IMO. Why not establish a "sticky thread" that lists Name, Date, & Sordid Details for anyone caught cheating? Sort of a modern version of the "Stocks" of yore.....

Don't you think that's a bit medievil??? I think the people in the thread should descide for themselves, and we should not mark a person because he cheated once.

	22-11-2002 22:25									#20
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quote: Originally posted by yop73 Don't you think that's a bit medievil??? I think the people in the thread should descide for themselves, and we should not mark a person because he cheated once.

Some of us are medieval Yop, I dont neccessarily agree with Choke but I do agree with Case, have a sticky that ID's cheaters, but it should be up to the individual group playing in a thread whether thay want that person to play or not. The only way I found out about PAVLOV was I was wondering how another game was going so I popped in for the first time to that thread, then I saw it. If I would not have gone there I might have never known. And anyone deserves a second chance, but myself I would prefer to know the facts then make a decision on whether a prior cheater should play or not. Hence the sticky with the offenders posted. Just MHO BTW.

	23-11-2002 00:50									#21
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Last edited by Choke on 23-11-2002 at 05:46

	23-11-2002 01:00									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Choke Why do you guys have such a wishy-washy opinion on banning? It's a necessary part of keeping forums civil.

Because banning is final, and it doesnt give someone a second chance, and it does not let the Democratic process work. ie the players in the threads get to decide. I dont consider that wishy washy, I consider that leaving options open for the individual or individuals to decide. And the Sticky IDing cheaters allows them to make an INFORMED decision.

That is Democracy in action, and that is why the good old USA is the Greatest Country in the world. (At least when the Republicans are in power.)

	23-11-2002 01:20									#23
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Last edited by Choke on 23-11-2002 at 05:46

	23-11-2002 01:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Choke Oh, ok the misguided belief in democracy is what results in these wimpy opinions . Seriously though this isn't a democracy, it's a dictatorship. Even if you want democracy, if enough people vote for something (like banning cheaters for instance) shouldn't it become law/policy in a democracy. Also, I don't think someone shouldn't be given a second chance but if they're given say a second and third chance and continue cheating then I htink they ought to be banned.

I could go with banning after three strikes, becuase at that point the person is either to stupid or too twisted to stop.

	23-11-2002 02:15									#25
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3 strikes and your out of the forum of pbem games is a good idea.

There should be however a long and thorough investigation before the person has been accused and banned from the system.

I for one was just recently accussed of cheating and I proven I was innocent. But the damage had been done. I left the game and now only partisipate in afew games.

The idea for banning cheaters is good but some type of system should be developed to discover who's been cheating. Maybe something along the lines of the websites developing the system though this is time consuming and troublesome for them. So any ideas?

	23-11-2002 02:23									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Civfan 3 strikes and your out of the forum of pbem games is a good idea. There should be however a long and thorough investigation before the person has been accused and banned from the system. I for one was just recently accussed of cheating and I proven I was innocent. But the damage had been done. I left the game and now only partisipate in afew games. The idea for banning cheaters is good but some type of system should be developed to discover who's been cheating. Maybe something along the lines of the websites developing the system though this is time consuming and troublesome for them. So any ideas?

This is interesting! I didn't know you were a cheater er accussed but not convicted cheater. Ill have to reconsider whether I play PBEM's with you in the future.

	23-11-2002 03:18									#27
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Choke: the site shouldn't interfere and ban people unless it is really necessary. Just because somebody cheats doesn't mean that they can't contribute to other parts of the forum, no? Also if no one would play with them if they feel he is a threat, so banning would be pointless. A thread on keeping track of cheaters and making sure DLs of them don't popup should be done though.

	23-11-2002 03:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kull Some combination of Awareness & Public Humiliation is better than banning, IMO. Why not establish a "sticky thread" that lists Name, Date, & Sordid Details for anyone caught cheating? Sort of a modern version of the "Stocks" of yore..... (Then all we'd need is a cool new smiley depicting the "throwing of the rotten tomato")

I second this motion.

	23-11-2002 04:16									#29
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quote: Originally posted by The ANZAC Choke: the site shouldn't interfere and ban people unless it is really necessary. Just because somebody cheats doesn't mean that they can't contribute to other parts of the forum, no? Also if no one would play with them if they feel he is a threat, so banning would be pointless. A thread on keeping track of cheaters and making sure DLs of them don't popup should be done though.

Ill second the ANZAC's motion

	23-11-2002 04:46									#30
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Last edited by Choke on 23-11-2002 at 05:36