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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Dr Strangelove was incorrect, France supplied far more men to the Allies then it ever did to Germany, the Vichy forces never served Germany, in fact in North Africa they would be the backbone of an army 250,000 strong that fought extrely well in Italy, southern and eastern france (and fough more effectivly then the Brits or Yanks for that matter). |
Thanks for the backup on that issue.
Although I'm not so sure about your claim that the Free French fought more effectively than the US Army.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
"I believe in general shitness of Russian army throughout history" .
David Floyd. |
Sorry, I don't recall saying that in quite those terms.
And even if I did, it has absolutely no bearing on the subject at hand.
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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Oh, and the proof that that isn't a direct quote is that I wouldn't use the term "shitness". It's not a real word, and my command of my own language is a bit better than that. Sorry, try again, serb.
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Serb
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Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:23
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Oh, you've quite a short memory David. You've said exactly those words (and btw, forced me to make search on dictionary.com for word "shitness". I'm still have no idea what do you mean when you've used this word. I could only guess.) and in your next post in that thread you've explained where it sucked, how it sucked and when it sucked. I don't remember the name of that thread, but there you've said that Russians will lose to GB, I said that you should abandon kickboxing, then you said what you've said.
Do you remember now?
Ok, lets stop this threadjack before it turns into another DF and all, all, all vs. Serb.
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Lars-E
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quote:
The collaborators were Croatia and the scandinavian countries. |
When the Germans invaded Norway they wanted to get hold of the royal family and the government, but they managed to escape to England. From Britain the Norwegian government fought the Nazi occupation. During the war the Norwegian resistance sabotaged and fought the Nazis. But the military capability could not compete with the German warmachine.
The action at Rjukan is ONE well-known example. (It's even in the pc-game "Medal of Honor"). Nazi Germany may possibly have produced nuclear weapons if it were not for the Norwegians.
Sweden btw, received Norwegians resistance fighters and Jews. Some Norwegians went to Sweden and then to England where they coordinated their efforts with the allies.
How you turn these historical facts into collaboration is history falsification at best.
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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by paiktis22
Azazel, I stand, as always, in utter readiness to accept and concede to any fact.
When someone says that Norway didn't colaborate with the Nazis in its shameful history, I cannot, will not, and my conscience won't let me accept it. |
What, you mean to tell us that you have a conscience?!
Well, congratulations, I guess.
-And congratulations on almost managing to piss me off with your pathetic little trolls.
As you know, the real trolls live in the Norwegian mountains, and they could eat you for lunch any day of the week. -Or perhaps not... if you yourself taste as foul as your posts, then I'd say your probably pretty safe from them. Have a nice life... 
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by David Floyd Thanks for the backup on that issue. |
It is fact, people hate the French, I don't care for the modern kind myself, but history is about fact, not what I personally like.
quote:
Although I'm not so sure about your claim that the Free French fought more effectively than the US Army. |
Read any history of the war in Italy, the French where tough moutain fighters, the US didn't even have a single moutain division till late in the war.
The US and Britsh way was unsuited to Italy.
The same is true of Southern France, the Rhone valley and the area around Colmar, rough terrain, and the French were masters here.
It must also be remembered these French were tough life-long professionals, not the reserves called up hastily in 1939, these units were the heart of the French Empire, tough Goumirs from North Africa, battlehardened Legioners, lead by expert officers.
The US army had some professionals, but was basically an army that relied on arty and airpower, the French relied on manpower.
The Brits, though more professional then the US, in Italy were a colection of Imperial forces and exile formations, and quality varied greatly from unit to unit.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
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Chris, I hadn't heard very much about the French in WWII, except that de Gaulle led the allies into Paris.
I also heard that the Poles were extremely good fighters both in Itally and in France.
Last edited by Ned on 24-11-2002 at 10:55
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Chris, I had heard very much about the French in WWII, except that de Gaulle led the allies into Paris. |
By the war's end the French would have a million men under arms, the French resistance was renamed the FFI (French forces of the Interior) and were considered part of the Army.
France had enough forces to form a genuine Army (Southern sector of Alsace/Lorraine, near Mulhouse), French forces were the first to cross the Rhine, and the first into Germany.
All of this was why the US insisted France be given an occupation zone and a seat on the Nurmenberg tribunal (so we have only ourselves to blame that those pesky French are still vexing us to this day ).
quote:
I also heard that the Poles were extremely good fighters both in Itally and in France. |
They actually took the famous abby of Monte Casino.
The poles in Italy were mostly freed from Soviet prisons after the Nazi invasion of Russia, and this army became enraged when the Katyn massacre was discovered (The Soviets murdered several thousand Polish officers in a forrest in belarus), these units also suffered from severe moral problems after the failed Warsaw uprising in 1944.
Britain organized a Polish armored division and a para brigade for the western front, and both fought well.
quote:
As to the Austrian Corps in the British Army - I never heard of this either. Did they see any action? |
Britain used German jews in the western dessert as commandoes (This was portrayed in the fictional movie "Tobruk" with George Peppard and Rock Hudson), but I don't recall any organized formation of regular troops (There may have been, I just don't remember hearing of such a thing).
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David Floyd
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The bottom of a large bottle of beer
Jan 1970
time: 05:23
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quote:
Read any history of the war in Italy, the French where tough moutain fighters, the US didn't even have a single moutain division till late in the war.
The US and Britsh way was unsuited to Italy.
The same is true of Southern France, the Rhone valley and the area around Colmar, rough terrain, and the French were masters here. |
OK, I understand what you are saying...I thought you were saying that units such as the French 2nd Armored under Leclerc outfought equivalent US units in that sector. I'd agree that the French alpine troops were superior, but I'd disagree with a statement saying French armor and other units operating further north were superior.
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Wernazuma III
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Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:23
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In my bad military history knowledge I've made the Austrian allied troops bigger than they were...
However, here's a text about Austrian allied troops found at: http://www.geocities.com/kumbayaaa/austrianallies.html
Austria is seldomly treated as a separate entity among the nations of the world during WWII. Mostly, this is the case because it was swallowed up by Germany in March 1938, and thus had no separate existence during the war. Out of exactly the same reason, people normally lump Austria and all Austrians with the Germans in WWII matters. However, there were also Austrians present on the other side of the front, in the Allied ranks. Here I have collected what I have so far found on them. Given the obscurity of the matter, I have not been able to track them as such, but only the units they were formed into.
With the US Army
In the US Army, the Austrians were present in a number of places (several hundred thousands of people of Austrian descent were in the US), but only one unit was ever raised: the 101st Infantry Battalion (Separate). Apparently using immigrants from Austria itself, not just having ties to the country (like the Nisei - US-born Japanese - in the 442nd Infantry Regiment), it was formed on 15 December 1942 at Camp Atterbury, Indiana.
It was planned to use it as a reservoir of German-speaking agents to the OSS (Office of Strategic Services, the wartime US intelligence), and after the war to use it as an occupation unit.
The number of men in the battalion seems not to have been able to reach establishment, at least it is mentioned as a weak battalion. This may have been due to transfers out of the unit to the OSS, but I have no information on that. Anyway it is, the battalion was inactivated again on 27 May 1943, still at Camp Atterbury, Indiana.
With the British Army
It is known for certain, that Austrians were present in the Special Services Brigade, better known as the Commandos. There, 10th (Inter-Allied) Commando was formed on 2July 1942 with 10 companies (or troops), one of which (7th (or "X") Troop, contained enemy nationalities like Germans, Hungarians, Italians and......Austrians. With the expansion and reorganisation of the Commando Forces HQ, 10th Commando, and along with it 7th Troop, became part of 4th Special Services Brigade, until relieved from it in April 1944. I have no info on where the personnel went after that.
With the Yugoslav Army
Finally, closest to Austria itself, the Yugoslav Partisans formed a number of Austrian battalions, only one of whom (the 1st) saw anything like prolonged combat. It was formed on 24 November 1944 in Slovenia from 120 men, 20 of which had been flown in specially from Moscow to help form the unit. It didnt see its first combat until 19 January 1945, and after that fought in a number of defensive battles, as the Axis forces tried to crush the Yugoslav 7th Corps.
As the main frontline neared the battalion in April and May 1945, it took part in a number of attacks on German and Domobran (Slovene Home Defence) posts, and finally ended up at Feldbach in Austria. After that, the battalion went to Vienna, to join the other 4 volunteer battalions of the Yugoslav Army. Men from all the battalions volunteered into the security forces of the new, temporary, Austrian government.
You can see a more detailed history of the 1st Austrian Battalion of the Yugoslav army here.
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23-11-2002 11:02
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