22-11-2002 10:16									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The Mormans try very hard to but bigamists in jail. Some slip through the cracks.

I know quite a few Mormons, and one of the dirty little secrets is that they aren't all that diligent about pursuing bigamists and do it only begrudgingly as PR for the church. A lot don't think there's anything wrong with it and believe they should be allowed to practice it as one of their cultural traditions.

	22-11-2002 10:28									#32
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Zylka, you can criticize murderers all you want, but when you say Islam is, and I quote, a "Primitve, apesh*t culture", then I have a problem. Maybe it's time to crawl out of that elitist box of yours and try to grasp at issues a bit out of your sphere of experience.

Hey, I got my point across with out saying f***. Wow.

	22-11-2002 10:47									#33
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ALL CULTURES ARE EXACTLY EQUAL, IF YOU SAY OTHERWISE YOU ARE RACIST

No. Sorry, I'm not a racist - I don't hold prejudice against someone for what they immediately are born into. I will, on the other hand, hold prejudice against cultures if they so display to me to be a primitive collection of values and beliefs. I will judge values, and yes, according to my own - which are far superior to theirs. I am a culturalist - and proud of it. It means that I can hate the institution that a group so feverishly devotes itself to, but not hate each individual of that group - as they always have the chance to improve upon themselves. And from what Islam has displayed, I as well as most of the world knows there is a dire need for reform - just as christianity ha(s) gone through after the crusades, for example. Islam in practise is full of horrible values, moreso than most cultures on earth, more so than mine, and I am therefore condescending to those who hold these beliefs next to their Kalishnikov rifle, perhaps next to their heart.

This little game that you play, to blindly repeat that all cultures are absolutely equal, and that no one should come under criticism more than the next - is the weakest display a human being can undertake.

F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK F*CK

	22-11-2002 10:50									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Zylka Oh, I'm sorry! How f*cking racist of my to be critical of murderous zealots! They have the mentality of rabid monkeys, and if I want to assume that from examples they give - it's F*CKING RACISM?! Grow up, and get out more. You're rotting from over-cautious, hyper liberal "EVERYONE CRITICAL IS A RACIST" thinking.

400 years ago, China viewed the rest of the world as "barbaric and backwards", which they probably were at the time. The emperor demanded that all foreigners grovel before him. The European traders got pissed off, and left.

200 years later, the Europeans returned with really cool weaponry and nearly blasted China off the map.

Just a word of caution, from history.

	22-11-2002 10:52									#35
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What, you suggest I let those Chinese fake watch traders into my house?

	22-11-2002 10:54									#36
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You people never understand, do you?

China was blasted out of the top by peoples they once considered "barbarians".

But oh well, if all Westerners have that attitude YOU do, then I see the same thing happening to you.

	22-11-2002 10:55									#37
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I can see lots and lots of blood being spilled over this clash of culture. And its not a good thing.

	22-11-2002 10:56									#38
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A lot has already been spilled, for a few millennia by now...

	22-11-2002 10:56									#39
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It was a joke. Your stupid little fable was a trite lesson in the inevitable fact that cultures change, and that change comes dramatic shifts in power. Have anything new for me?

	22-11-2002 10:57									#40
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Yes.

Hence your narrow-minded bigotry is both hilarious and pathetic.

	22-11-2002 10:58									#41
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How so??? I am demanding this kind of change from Islam - are you blind?

	22-11-2002 11:01									#42
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Personally, I think Nigeria would still be pretty f***ed up without the Islam thrown into the works... they have more government changes than Italy except that a lot more people get shot in the process...

	22-11-2002 11:02									#43
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Z:
Yes, if you call them "primitive, apesh*t", you're indeed helping a lot.

	22-11-2002 11:04									#44
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Oh boo hoo the words are a little too harsh then? I guess soft language takes precedence over truth

	22-11-2002 11:20									#45
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Nope, practicality takes precedence over yapping off about some private theory.

	22-11-2002 11:27									#46
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That's true, because Extremism and idealism will kill us all. Sitting on the fence drooling and watching others put their murderous intentions into practise is the best way to avoid this death, I gather.

	22-11-2002 11:40									#47
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Standing in the field and hurling various unfounded, bigoted, one-sided insults would quickly bring about peace and brotherhood, no doubt.

	22-11-2002 12:31									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Hobbes A man has a harem and raises a large family of children and then sells the children as sex slaves. This, in my opinion and practically everyone else, is terribly wrong. This takes place all over the rocky mountain region between British Columbia and Utah and probably in many other places in North America. Every culture has its 'black eye', both western and Islamic. Every culture has its crazies and the not-so-crazies. No culture is better than another.

Oh come on, what fraction of 1% of the population does this comprise? Don't forget Jeffrey Daumer, a sure sign that our civilization is no better than barbarism.

	22-11-2002 13:57									#49
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quote: Originally posted by ranskaldan peace and brotherhood

There is no peace and brotherhood with Islamists, unless you are an Islamist. Don't you get it?

Maybe you would have a different perspective if you were a non muslim in the Phillipines, or Malaya, or Nigeria(??).

Grab a clue. The Islamist movement is not something that can be co-existed with. Sooner or later, more and more will realise this. The later it goes, the higher the price.

	22-11-2002 14:34									#50
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"Nigeria isn't quite a muslim country. The population is slightly less than 50% muslim, 40% christian, and 10% indigenous religions, yet the government has imposed Sharia law on the whole country."

No. The government doesn't impose Sharia on the country (they would have a civil war between north and south if they did). They let the individual states determine whether they use Sharia or not, so it is in force in the north but not the south.

"There is no peace and brotherhood with Islamists, unless you are an Islamist. Don't you get it?

Maybe you would have a different perspective if you were a non muslim in the Phillipines, or Malaya, or Nigeria(??)."

I was born in Malaysia, and lived for a few years in Jos, Nigeria (the North East, Plateau State). We had no problem there at all. The military government of Nigeria was the biggest cause of trouble, mixed with a still very tribal culture...the elections just after we left (1980) were not fun, but this had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with local chiefs trying to secure power for themselves.

In other words, your talking crap...

	22-11-2002 15:46									#51
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sharia law is fine and dandy- they keep a woman sentenced to death for adultery alive long enough to have her baby weened.

compassionate fundamentalism

	22-11-2002 15:55									#52
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger sharia law is fine and dandy- they keep a woman sentenced to death for adultery alive long enough to have her baby weened. compassionate fundamentalism

	22-11-2002 20:55									#53
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Good God. At least 105 now dead!

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentS...p=1012571727088

	23-11-2002 07:52									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Tolls I was born in Malaysia, and lived for a few years in Jos, Nigeria (the North East, Plateau State). We had no problem there at all. The military government of Nigeria was the biggest cause of trouble, mixed with a still very tribal culture...the elections just after we left (1980) were not fun, but this had nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with local chiefs trying to secure power for themselves. In other words, your talking crap...

In other words, you haven't been there since before the Islamists managed to defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. Quite a bit different world that created. The next time you want to talk 'crap', get your dates right.

	23-11-2002 08:30									#55
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The disturbances are all, most likely, politically orchestrated. The government is percieved as being dominanted by the Christian South. The Islamic North wants power and to that end they want to destabilize the current situtation (within limits). It's all about proving Pres. Obasanjo's government ineffective and winning the presidency for the North in 2003.

This is the problem when the government is seen as one of few routes to prosperity. Elections are viewed as a zero-sum game. Control of the central government becomes an obsession for most sectors of the country. It's a rather dangerous situtation.

	23-11-2002 08:36									#56
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I thought that the current president of Nigeria was a muslim.

	23-11-2002 09:20									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove I thought that the current president of Nigeria was a muslim.

He's a Bible reader. Although it's funny, he was backed by most of the Muslims in the last election - in a compromise arrangment. But now most of them distrust him and want him gone.

	23-11-2002 11:57									#58
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I don't buy this as being politically motivated rioting. Muslims have rioted like this in recently in India, Pakistan and in East Timor as well. I don't doubt that they are inspired to rampage by clerics at their mosques.

Islam across the globe, appears to be a very violent religion. Where are the moderates?

The defenders of Islam here are trying to deflect blame by blaming Christians of yesteryear of equal violence. That is, in fact, a form of agreement that Islam is, at least in today's world, a violent religion.

	24-11-2002 05:22									#59
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Moderates are actually in moderates arab countries (Syria, Tunisia, Lebanon and so on)

If a muslim would do such things to a christian in one of those countries- poor guy

Ah, don't ever mess with syrian police- not even if you're a stupid tourist

	24-11-2002 06:50									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Islam across the globe, appears to be a very violent religion.

As opposed to the pacifist Christians, who turn the other cheek and believe thou shalt not kill...

in Lebanon, in Rwanda, in Burundi, in Northern Ireland/Six Counties, in Croatia/Bosnia/Serbia/Albania/Kossovo, in Central America (El Salvador, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Honduras) in Chile, Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, in South Africa...

Christianity and Islam are not in themselves to blame, but how people choose to interpret them is. The Dutch Reformed Church of South Africa used the Bible to 'prove' the superiority of white people over Africans- and then to subjugate them.
The Orthodox Churches in the Balkans acted as centres of nationalist groupings against the Turks when they were occupiers, and this legacy carried over post-occupation.

Protestant Christians in the United States happily lynched African Americans and Jews and Catholics at the equivalent of family picnics, with souvenir postcards and bits of rope as memorials to the day's work.

In South America and Central America, Christians have helped kill each other (Archbishop Romero a notable example) and indigenous peoples, and political dissidents.

Similarly, they have killed each other in Africa- in Burundi and Rwanda, prelates and nuns (!) happily collaborated with militias and armies in mass extermination campaigns.

Let's not start asserting the moral superiority of Christianity over Islam- it won't fly.