22-11-2002 16:53									#1
	What's the best use for catapults? Got spare money?

It seems to me they don't have much use.

They're too weak to effectively bombard towns, and are virtually useless against cities. You'd need masses of them to do any good, and you really can't afford the time or resources in the ancient era to mass-build them.

And when it comes to defending your own cities, it seems to me you'd be better off using the time needed to build them by building a spearman/pikeman instead.

Your thoughts?

	22-11-2002 16:58									#2
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Build 'em cheap.

Don't use them.

Upgrade to canon when possible.

Don't have to spend time building canons...

	22-11-2002 17:07									#3
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I've never built or used catapults (OK, once. But that's how I worked out how useless they are). But I can see the same use for them as there is for warriors and chariots.

To upgrade later on (though I wait until I can get artillery to upgrade and use them, since cannons are quite useless as well in my experience).

But then again, by the time I have Replaceable Parts, I can usually crank out an artillery unit every three turns in my core cities. That's why I hardly bother with catapults anyway.

	22-11-2002 17:23									#4
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Catapults are great if you combine them with slow moving early UU's. Legions + Catapults = No Casualties When taking cities (lot's of elites and GL's) and no losses from counterattacks because the legions have defense of 3 and catapults knocks the first HP off any attacker.

Try out a stack of 10 catapults + 10 legions. Definitedly more effective than 20 legions.

	22-11-2002 18:09									#5
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10 catapults + 10 legions. I have to try it some day

Catapults will also strengthen your defense if you use them right. As they are rather inaccurate(and weak) you will need at least 2-3 of them. Use them to soften up attackers before they reach your positions, then finish them off with your own offensive units or let them flee back to their own territory to heal. Their biggest strength is that they can lower your own losses drastically.

	22-11-2002 18:33									#6
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It's true that catapults are not very effective against towns or cities... however, my experience shows that they are very good against units in the open terrain. Take two spearmen, some archers or swordsmen, and two or three catapults, put them on a hill and you will be surprised, how much damage you will be able to inflict on your enemy. I have done this successfully several times. Especially useful for holding chokepoints or establishing an "operational base" in the enemy territory - your opponent will do whatever to force you out of his territory and will thus bleed heavily...

	22-11-2002 21:06									#7
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quote: Try out a stack of 10 catapults + 10 legions. Definitedly more effective than 20 legions.

I'd take 20 legions , or even 15. It would have to be very exceptional situation for me even to consider catapults. There is no time to stop for throwing rocks when you need to take their cities, every turn counts. Catapults are for disbanding, if you manage to conquer some.

	22-11-2002 22:23									#8
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I will use catapults I capture to fire at units attempting to counterattack, and then finish the unit with an elite, hoping for a leader. Thus, the catapult helps preserve my elite unit.

I will build some catapults shortly before the discovery of metallurgy, so that I can upgrade them to cannon and later artillery.

I rarely use bombard units on the attack because they are so slow.

I have never teamed catapults with legionaries... but I could see how they would be useful. I hate slow units and most ancient UUs (for timing reasons), though.

-Arrian

	23-11-2002 01:39									#9
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Time and time again I've got myself out of a real pickle thanks to catapults (though, admittedly, much more with cannons, etc.); I try to keep a pile of them ready in my border cities - that is, where I'm most likely to be attacked - and I use them to soften up my attackers before blasting them to smithereens with my units, often INFERIOR units. Knock a notch or two off an elite enemy unit and your conscript has a chance to both win and be promoted. It makes a BIG difference. I apply this very seriously all through my game, and as far as I can tell, the AI doesn't use bombard nearly so effectively (except with bombers).

	23-11-2002 02:18									#10
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What's the best use for catapults?

Tempted to reply, "kindling," but that's not really true. I think Jeannette has a good point that applies to all the bombarment units - they do have great defensive value. My problem with catapults is that they tend to have value for such a very brief time before the newer foot/horse units make them superfluous.

	23-11-2002 05:05									#11
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What's the best use?

As far as I can tell, upgrading them to artillery or radar arty.

I was actually thinking about this last night:

Mill Advisor: "Mr. President, we should convert these 2000 year old wooden catapults into computer controlled multiple rocket launchers"

Prez: "Okay"

	23-11-2002 11:02									#12
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Catapults, Cannon, and Artillery are best when used defensively, but they can be used in an offensive role too. Stack 25-30 of these units together with a good mixture of offensive and defensive units and you can destroy any city you wish. The only downside is the slowness of the attack. Best used in a Republic or Monarch type gvernment.

	23-11-2002 11:50									#13
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Like others mentioned, I place catapult units in my cities that border another civ. I upgrade them to cannon when I can. I use quite a few bombard unit throughout the game. The best thing to do is find good terrain, like hills or mountains right outside a city, then fortify some good units ontop of about 3 catapults/cannon/artillery and blast away at the city for about 6 or 7 turns then move in for the kill. I try to bombard until the barracks are destroyed, take down the defending units a notch or two and then attack with my units, leaving one behind to protect the catapults.

	24-11-2002 00:11									#14
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hi ,

they are great when i a small stack of units , when attacked , they shall defend the stack or city , dont build to many of them , the ones that you have to many are best to be disbanded when building a new unit or building , cannons are not that great neither , you dont need to many of them , artillery is really worth going for , but dont start to build catapults now in order to have them fast with artillery , they cost money in the mean time , .....

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 00:38									#15
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect (lot's of elites and GL's)

That is a very important reason. Here is a Catapult attack that led directly to a Great Leader. Taking consistent advantage of such opportunites will always maximize your chances of promotion or a Great Leader.


http://www.zachriel.com/gotm11/bc0230-Tojo.htm

quote: Try out a stack of 10 catapults + 10 legions. Definitedly more effective than 20 legions.

And you will probably find more of your units intact at the end of the battle.

	24-11-2002 00:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I rarely use bombard units on the attack because they are so slow. I have never teamed catapults with legionaries... but I could see how they would be useful. I hate slow units . . . Arrian

Ay, there's the rub. Siege warfare takes patience.

Certainly mounted units are more exciting, but we don't always have the requisite technologies or resources. Sometimes, we are forced to war. When our honor is tested, shall we merely turn away?

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more;
Or close the wall up with our English dead.

(I enjoy primitive bombardment and siege warfare for a change of pace and a challenge. Here is a typical example of using a strong defensive unit along with bombardment to form the backbone of an attack.)



http://www.zachriel.com/gotm9/ad0570-Pike.htm

	24-11-2002 02:15									#17
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The best use?

Let's say that you have no Iron and no Horses.

Wanna Aracher massacre?

If not, try adding some catapluts.

	24-11-2002 17:03									#18
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quote: Originally posted by player1 The best use? Let's say that you have no Iron and no Horses. Wanna Aracher massacre? If not, try adding some catapluts.

hi ,

if you have good intel they can be taken out before they reach you , .....

have a nice day

	24-11-2002 17:28									#19
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Zachriel, why does the terrain art look different in your game from mine?

	24-11-2002 19:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Captain THC Zachriel, why does the terrain art look different in your game from mine?

Zach is using Sn00py's terrain. You can find it here: Apolyton Directory. Files -> Civ3 -> Graphic.

About the catapults, well, I was once in a desperate situation: after a devastating attack from the AI, I had nothing but two cities (one of them was my capital) and I knew that the game was over... But I had two catapults in both cities and, believe it or not, I managed to repel the enemy. Wave after wave, their units came at my city doors only to be welcomed by a fierce barrage of rocks from my catapults. That always knocked out one or two notches from their hitpoints, so they retreated. After a lot of attempts, they finally got tired of that and offered me peace. Yes, that game was over for me, but I had a small victory in the end, thanks to my catapults. OTOH, this happened at a low difficulty level...

	24-11-2002 20:09									#21
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I like to use catapults for anti-galley work. For some reason, 2/3 of my galley attacks fail straight up, but if dinged a point or two, not only sends them home, but makes things much easier to control the seaways. I also like them in a ratio of 1:2 vs. other defenders at border choke points. They're really too weak to 'impact' cities much, but upgrade nicely to cannon. Still not great until the artillery stage, by which time I have a pretty fair number of them, fielded in stacks with strong defensive support, they open cities and flatten counter-attacks. Never gotten to the radar version, keep getting victory before. The only good nuke is a nuke not built.

	25-11-2002 02:49									#22
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Yeah, I have very bad galley v. galley luck.

	25-11-2002 08:05									#23
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It seems like everyone does..

	25-11-2002 16:07									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Captain THC It seems like everyone does..

It would be nice if our galleys could be "trained". I mean, if the galley is built in a city with a harbor, it would not only be a veteran, but this status would effectively give it some bonus in combat, similar to the terrain bonus used for land units. This way, we would not have to rely solely in the number of hitpoints, which is not enough to avoid the defeat in a battle.

	25-11-2002 17:08									#25
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That extra hitpoint IS your veteran bonus. Combine that with catapults will make ruling the waves so much easier.

	26-11-2002 03:26									#26
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Could we sum this up and say "The main point of catapults is to reduce your losses and make war more cost efficient." ???

	26-11-2002 05:37									#27
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quote: Originally posted by statusperfect Could we sum this up and say "The main point of catapults is to reduce your losses and make war more cost efficient." ???

GOOD
1. reduce losses
2. more cost efficient war
3. maximize promotion
4. maximize Leaders
5. against hill-towns
6. aggressive defense
7. when at a disadvantage
8. upgradeable
9. cheap (same as spearman)

BAD
1. slow
2. weak
1. slow
2. weak

NEUTRAL

1. Catapults work best in more crowded positions when the enemy is close by.

	26-11-2002 12:26									#28
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I actually avoid building catapults. Although I do build some if I do have the production capacity and then fortify them in forward cities for defensive purposes.


So long...

	26-11-2002 16:34									#29
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Zachriel

End of discussion (not bloody likely)