25-11-2002 08:54									#31
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I didn't say there shouldn't be a limit to how involved governments get, and the economy is not the only thing involved in governing which is another grave oversight of Libertarians. People, not dollars, are what is governed and with people there are more concerns than tax and interest rates. Also there is the matter of foreign affairs.

For instance I think the Canadian government does a better job of governing than America's does. For instance race is not a big issue in Canada the way it is south of the border. Also no planes have crashed into Canadian buildings. In Canada there are less problems to do with homelessness and poverty. Our air and water are cleaner. Special interest groups are far less militant. Things are managed better because the government is big enough to handle them.

	25-11-2002 08:58									#32
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Canada and the U.S. are absolute apples and oranges and you know it.

	25-11-2002 09:29									#33
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No we aren't and you don't want to admit that.

	25-11-2002 09:43									#34
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*sigh* I'm not going to go over the innumerable differences between Canada and the U.S. Let's just say the mere fact that we have a bunch of cities on the same continent do not make us so easily comparable on the terms you listed.

At any rate, the U.S. has a higher standard of personal liberty and we value that enough to consider those shortfalls a simple price to be paid for it.

	25-11-2002 12:30									#35
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And Canada has a higher standard of societal liberty and we value it enough to consider it more important than mere personal liberties.

Last edited by Choke on 25-11-2002 at 14:14

	25-11-2002 14:28									#36
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Bah!, Australia's better then Canada and the US combined

Honest

	25-11-2002 16:22									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Case Bah!, Australia's better then Canada and the US combined Honest

He's right... who can take seriously a continent that picked baseball over cricket?

	25-11-2002 20:18									#38
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Oh Choke, I forgot to mention that we're the lone superpower. Yeah, that whole thing.

	25-11-2002 20:22									#39
	Inflate your Upload Space

Btw, could you define "societal liberty"? What does that mean, that a man is "free" to not work or or "free" to have health care, because the rich pay for it through taxes?

You can call Canada's system fair, and I'll gladly respect that opinion (even understand it to a point), but don't call it free.

	26-11-2002 01:19									#40
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Please keep the OT discussions confined to the SLeague forum.

	26-11-2002 02:25									#41
	Got spare money?

Sorry St Leo, you could move the thread I guess.

Anyway Darius how could you NOT know what societal liberties are? In America you are free to be a glutton, in Canada you can't be such a glutton but you are free from starvation. Real freedom is freedom FROM not freedom TO.

	26-11-2002 03:03									#42
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Well, millions and millions of people think real freedom is exactly the other way around.

	26-11-2002 03:35									#43
	Re: No new PBEM's recently, are there? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Valuk Is there no one left who wants to play? Come on!

A player in needed in Lebensraum 1939 #2 to play the British

	26-11-2002 05:11									#44
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Actually I beg to differ: less government is better. Freedom is the right to be left alone not a right to entitlements. Sure, you may have better security, as in security against diseases, poverty, etc, but you give up your liberty to do what you want. It's called communitarianism, the "greater good" of the community

	26-11-2002 05:30									#45
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Pretty much Choke, as I've said before if you think it's "fair" for people to have entitlements, just say so. Don't use the words "societal liberty" in such a way, because liberty has nothing to do with it. There's no such thing as "freedom from starvation".

	26-11-2002 05:32									#46
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo Please keep the OT discussions confined to the SLeague forum.

Yeah, you should talk!

	26-11-2002 05:40									#47
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*And to think this all happened because of a link from me!*

	26-11-2002 05:41									#48
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But, I think soon enough there will be more interest, like once TSFE closes up shop That was a nice PBEM...

	26-11-2002 06:18									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

"It's called communitarianism, the "greater good" of the community"

Exactly, and Darius, there is such a thing as freedom from. I believe the greater good always must always be prefered over the individual.

	26-11-2002 06:23									#50
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So I guess you aren't a great believer in the ends don't justify the means?

	26-11-2002 06:36									#51
	Got spare money?

A lot of people aren't, unfortunately.

	26-11-2002 07:19									#52
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The freedom us yanks are talking about IS "freedom from", civil liberties vs civil rights, the former being actions the government doesn't take, the latter being actions it does take to try to ensure maximum liberty. I don't think any of us here would choose to solely take one or the other, we just have different ideas on balance. But I know that it's always safer to value individual liberty, without that value, the US would have just rollen over and given a totally blank check to the gov after 9/11 (as it is we just gave them a blank check with an expiration date), and accepted such horrible ideas as TIPS and this new DoD thing called TIA which wants to monitor every monetary transaction of everyone who does anything in the US

	26-11-2002 07:51									#53
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

People, don't argue over silly things in here. That's what the SLeague forum is for.

In any case, you are promoting Socialism by pretending it's Fascism and Libertarianism by pretending it's Anarchy.

A player in needed in Lebensraum 1939 #2 to play the British

Any takers?