23-11-2002 21:49									#1
	Berzerking!!! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I know a lot of people on this board were predicting that Scandanavian berserkers were going to be a seriously dominant force, but I have to confess I didn't grasp just how dominant, in certain game situations ...
until my current game.

I decided to play the Vikings in a suitable environment: archipelago world, standard size, raging barbs, 8 AI civs. Found myself sharing a fair-sized island with the Germans. Over the ancient age, a more-or-less standard strategy: an early pruning war trimmed Bismark well down, followed by a second round that kicked him off the continent.
Meanwhile, the larger world came slowly into view: the AI's were dispersed on islands, for the most part, but connected by shallow sea lanes. No opportunities for any outrageous brokering via suicide galleys, then.
Several early setbacks shaped the course of the game. Rome beat me to the Great Lighthouse (which I had prioritized, wanting to play a very maritime/oceanic terror kind of game). And the Arabs beat me out to the Great Library -- by one turn!!!
That second event was a danger signal: Abu shared a good-sized island with the Iroquois, and by the early middle ages managed to seize the entire landmass. The other AI civs, meanwhile, seemed to be locked in local struggles, unable to achieve critical mass in terms of tech or power. Centuries passed before anyone built harbors but me, and apart from Arabia, the opportunities for tech trading were minimal because the other AI civs were so poor. Soon I too was trailing the Arabs badly in tech. I burrowed in, built up my continent, erected a Forbidden Palace, entered monarchy.
Finally I reached invention and started preparing some berserkers for oceanic sorties. I knew I had to hurt Abu badly, to check his growth and let the other AI civs climb back into the game. My berserkers grimly boarded a modest fleet of three galleys and sailed off for the Arabian coast.

Oh my! So long as these guys stay in their ships, nothing can touch them. They will take out a fortified musket more often than not, and their ability to sail unscathed beyond what the AI considers "front line" cities means they easily reach large cities defended by two or three units. I razed a string of cities along the Arabian coast, with minimal losses.
And of course, the first berserker victory triggered a golden age, so I was pumping these guys out.
(The GA is nicely timed, by the way, coming at a point in most games in which you will have both a palace core and an FP core -- so you can in effect build guns and butter simultaneously. I initiated a round of bank and university construction, and meanwhile shipped out dozens of berserkers.)

	23-11-2002 21:57									#2
	Put an end to popups!

Here's what I mean:

That caravel shadowing my galleys is not going to attack. Not once did an Arabian vessel try to sink one of my galleys. Alleghany was defended by three muskets: 2 vets and a regular. I lost only zerker taking the city (plus another after the conquering zerk razed the city and fell next turn to counter attack).

I'm not trying to seize any territory on Abu's continent yet, just destroying cities.
I suppose you can consider this a war of attrition, but it's one with lopsided odds in my favor. A dozen turns or so of this and Abu was begging for peace. Despite the fact that he had cavalry by this point (I did not even have chivalry yet!) he was helpless to defend his cities.

Zerkers are unholy terrors during the musket cavalry stage of the game in any inter-continental situation.

Attachment: berserker armada.jpg
This has been downloaded 399 time(s).

	23-11-2002 22:19									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have played one game as the Scandanavians and found myself losing badly. A terrible start position and some early tactical errors on my part pretty much sealed my fate. Nonetheless, I found the Berzerks to be very effective against a much stronger AI in exactly the same way that you used them. I was sending 4 Berserks against coastal cities (7+ pop) defended by two regular riflemen and usually succeeding at taking (and razing) the cities. A few razed coastal cities certainly gets the AI's attention, even when possessing a significant technological and production edge.

Catt

	23-11-2002 23:19									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Some follow up thoughts:
1) you need to put these tactics in play before an opponent discovers Magnetism. Frigates, of course, become the main line of defense.

2) I doubt the AI will be able to put together a sustained berserker blitzkrieg. But in MP, watch out. Naval defense now becomes a high priority. (This is going to dramatically restructure homeland defense strategies.)

3) Using zerker amphibious strikes for leader generation works fairly well -- except that you need to be able to land defensive units to protect any leader you generate. In this situation (not taking cities, just burning them to the ground ) I wasn't trying to work up a leader necessarily, just punish the strongest AI civ. Still, it hurt to see Lief fall before I had a chance to load him onto a galley and sail him home.


p.s. lol lol I love it. I post on one of the most obviously powerful units in the game (duh!). And meanwhile Aeson posts to show us how really gamebreaking the "weakest" unit of all (the lowly scout) really is.

	23-11-2002 23:43									#5
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron Still, it hurt to see Lief fall before I had a chance to load him onto a galley and sail him home.

I feel your pain Robber. It seems that in every PTW game I have started, the only time I get great leaders is defending during the AI's turn and always with one unit in the stack and always when it gets down to only 1 hp and then the AI always has a spearman or something handy to finish off my cavalry unit AND my leader before I even get a chance to finish celebrating his birth! In the past 2 weeks I have spawned about 6 leaders and have yet to be able to use one (I know, I know, it's all about STACKING )!

Anyhow, I like this strategy and had contemplated the possibilities for the berzerker when I saw the description of the PTW UU's. Now that you have paved the way I will have to try it out. Thanks.

	23-11-2002 23:52									#6
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Robber Baron 3) Using zerker amphibious strikes for leader generation works fairly well -- except that you need to be able to land defensive units to protect any leader you generate. In this situation (not taking cities, just burning them to the ground ) I wasn't trying to work up a leader necessarily, just punish the strongest AI civ. Still, it hurt to see Lief fall before I had a chance to load him onto a galley and sail him home.

I thought GLeaders got to move on the turn they were created... I'm 90% positive I did just that last night on my Game of Attempted Leader Generation.

Am I mistook?

	24-11-2002 00:09									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

ducki -- yer right! The details are hazy. I guess what happened was that the zerker popped the leader defending against the first round of counterattack, then fell next round.
Either that or, like a total bonehead, I simply failed to play this right. (Entirely possible with me, I'm afraid. )

	24-11-2002 02:29									#8
	Remove this text

Leaders can move on the turn they are created, if it is offense, on defense they do not as it is not your turn.

	25-11-2002 20:12									#9
	Support Apolyton

The main problem that I see with Berzerks is that their main use exploits a severe weakness in the AI: proper city defense. Although this weakness is exploitable normally (just use a two-pronged attack to divert most of the AIs defense from your main force), with Berzerks it's even easier to do.

In a Viking game I played recently (for AU-205, which I probably won't finish), I attacked one civ with a minor, heavy-defender force on land. This was to pull all the AIs units away from its coastal cities. I had a total of 6 Berzerks in Galleys as my "main" attack force. Just these 6 Berserks took out half their empire in no time. When I sued for peace most of the AI's military still hadn't touched my land units.

I imagine the Vikings were created with MP in mind, where their UU is actually strategically interesting.


Dominae

	25-11-2002 20:43									#10
	Got spare money?

Some refinements in zerker tactics:
(I know, I know, the idea of refined zerker tactics sounds odd.)
The first round of usage can be a punishing/coastal softening round: simply sail down the coast, razing AI cities. Particularly effective against an enemy with major coastal production/economic powerhouses. Easier to simply raze most of them than try to capture territory.
You could play to hold the cities, but you might not want to. Preparing proper defenses as you go along in order to consolidate your gains will slow down the attack. And believe me, you will be amazed at how rapidly you can chew your way down the coast with these units.

Or, alternatively, against a well-developed enemy with core cities located in the interior of a landmass, beyond amphibious reach, send in a shock force to seize and hold one or two vital spots behind the lines: a strategic resource, or an infrastructure choke point. This time you send in a larger, mixed force -- 4-6 zerkers to take one or two city, then other elements (knights or cavalry, perhaps) to sail into conquered cities and deploy immediately out through the countryside pillaging roads. (You need to take the city to sail in and send out land units on the same term.) Call it a zerker blitz. Even if the city cannot be held, you will have completely scrambled your enemy's infrastructure. He will reel back, be forced to send units in to retake his city and destroy your pillagers. Meanwhile, you launch another invastion, this time to establish a beachhead with territory/cities you mean to hold.

	28-12-2002 04:44									#11
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Try bringing along next time an empty galley were you can load the captured workers from the towns you burned along with any leader that you may have created. Bezerkers are weak on defense, so you dont want them to end their turn all alone on a city. Maybe bring one Musketmen to guard against a knight assault.

	21-01-2003 20:31									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I have just started a new game using Vikings, and boy I have to tell you they are really great. Musketmen/Pikemen might slow your invasion force down a little, but when I was killing Japan off, the only thing they had was Swordsmen and Spearmen :P.

I was able to take cities and hold them at the same time (no pillaging nessecary). I can't imagine how good this would be in MP. What would happen If my bezerks take over a city, then give the city to my chinese ally that has his Riders sitting on his galley to come in and send them towards the enemy capital.....


The terror.. The terror..