15-01-2001 11:13									#1
	Must-get wonders Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Okay, having heard about wonders, I was just wondering how many and why you get them. I never build wonders until I have at least 10 cities set up with monarchy (so I can irrigrate the capital city (it is always the wonder city at first)) and a granary, temple, and 3 garrisons in the city. In all games I play, for some incredibly strange reason since a while back I have always tried my best to get hanging gardens first, while I kinda figure the others can wait until at least 1000 ad. To me, the oracle is the most cost efficient and most important wonder when you have 10 cities with 1/2 of them revolting. Sure wonders like the oracle would help a lot since I already have temples but considering the fact that it would cost another 20 turns out of the city I don't find it worth it.

When I have declared war/won a war with another player, I usually start a 2nd project. Most likely it is Mich's chapel, or king richard's crusade. I rarely manage to get mich, crusades, and sun tzu's academy. The rest can just rot for all I care . If I get the chance I will also grab adam's workshop but actually life is quite fine without it. By the 2nd war I will be republic and soon I should be fundamentalist so I just ditch the idea.

Anyhow, I just want you to list your fav wonders in highest priority:

For me:

1. Hanging Gardens
2. King Richard's Crusade (actually Mich's chap is at same priority but if I get this one first mich's chap will be finished earlier)
3. Michaelangelo's Chapel
4. (Although I like this one, I hardly ever get the chance) Sun Tzu's War Academy

	15-01-2001 11:14									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I've heard a lot of people talking abotu leo's workshop. I built it a lot at first but usually my battles dont' span time periods--most of my inferior units are either dead or guarding in cities so I can easily disband them rather than having them *upgraded*.

	15-01-2001 17:04									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've been thinking a lot about wonders lately, because I've finally (with a great deal of help from the good folks here) started winning SP at emperor. I don't know how much of it is due to building wonders, but I'm sure they help. Here's what I do (note that I'm heading for AC, not world conquest). I start building once my fourth city is founded; at that point, I begin building the Colossus in my capital. With the founding of my fifth or sixth city, I begin building the Hanging Gardens in the city that has the best production. I try to get trade early (generally, right after monarchy and right before or just after pottery, depending on what I'm being offered) so caravans can help me out. After that, I go all out to build these wonders, generally in this order (this also gives you a general sense of the tech path I follow):

Copernicus (in the Colossus city), Michelangelo, Isaac Newton (in the Colossus city) Adam Smith, Leo, the UN, Hoover.

Now, what there is really necessary? A good player would surely say "nothing," but I'm not a good player . Since I'm shooting to win the space race, I definitely feel I need the Colossus and either Copernicus or Newton (though obviously it's better to have both); since I switch to democracy asap and never switch out, Michelangelo is essential to deal with happiness; and Hoover is essential to deal with pollution (since, as a democracy, settlers/engineers are so expensive to maintain). Smith, Leo, and the UN are probably not necessary but really convenient; the advantages to the first two are probably obvious (though I should say that I think the big advantage of Leo's is not the military upgrade but the upgrading of settlers to engineers); I like the UN, too, because it makes it easier to get annoying SP civs to back off.

Beyond those, there are the Wonders I like to build, but probably don't need: Bach's and the Cure for Cancer (I like a happy empire), SETI and Apollo (obviously, in my game, somebody has to build Apollo, but the AI will if you let 'em). If my mid-game is really going well, I'll try to build Shakespeare, but since the AI likes that one I rarely get it (the AI also goes for medicine a lot earlier than I do). Finally, if I miss out on the Gardens (which happens a lot, since the AI really likes it, too), I tend to switch over to Marco Polo.

Well, that should be more than you ever wanted to know (I do go on, don't I )!

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

	15-01-2001 17:42									#4
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Nice to see a vote for the Oracle, Ajli. People usually point to its early obsolescence as too big a minus.

I like the movie and always let it play (probably because I am one of those who rarely build it).

Just lately I've been playing with the restriction that I can only build one wonder from each age. At the moment I'm mostly going for Lighthouse followed by Magellan's with the strategic plan to exploit foreign trade to the max and to control the AI by judicious covert operations.

It makes for a different game when you don't have to get into a succession of wonder races. It seems to be pacier and less artificial.

To answer your question tho', Hoover's has always struck me as very important for an AC landing game. There always seems to be an AI civ or two left in reasonable shape for the space race and that is the point at which their production advantages (in deity) will be most telling. Hoover's saves both the time and resources needed to build costly power plants and the infrastructure to cope with pollution.

But that is a perfectionist, AC landing, viewpoint. Guess a warmonger or a sleazer would say they have a quite different agenda.

	16-01-2001 00:58									#6
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There are two reasons to build wonders: to get the great benefit they convey and/or to keep the AI from getting the benefit. My choices:

1) Hanging Gardens: Nothing starts you off better than this wonder. Great for expansion. Keeps WLTKD going for a long time in the city you build it in.
2) Mike's Chapel: Solves most happiness problems for the whole game. A huge money and time saver. A money generator in Fundy.
3) Leo: Another big time saver. Settlers to Engineers, Diplos to Spies, Galleon to Transport. What's not to like? Don't let aggressive AI build this.
4) Colossus: Generates hundreds of trade arrows and lasts a very long time.
5) Bach: Has the unique ability to partially undo military unhappiness for Rep/Dem.
6) Statue of Liberty: Mostly a keep-away wonder. I just love to see the AI declare war and switch from Democracy to Monarchy because they don't have this wonder. You'll dread trying to hold off an early aggressive AI Fundy civ if you let it get away.
7) Adam Smith: Massive money saver. Build it, if for no other reason than you can't allow the AI to save that much money.

	16-01-2001 03:53									#7
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1. Colossus. In the capital or VERY near the capital as soon as I can build it without stopping my expansion. Then I TRY to add Isaac Newton's College and that city becomes my favorite (I have never been able to outrun and build copernicus as well... astronomy is not a priority in the beggining...)

2. Michealangelo. The second biggest priority. I have to build it so I can change to republic immediately and as soon as possible to democracy. Otherwise things are more... challenging...

3. Leonardo's Workshop. I will try to built it although it's not absolutely necessairy to my way of playing.

4. Adam Smith. My third priority. I love the cash, plus I cab build 1 gold mentainance improvements in every single city. To my small land mass world it's a must for coastal fortresses and such.

5. Hoover Dam. Number one priority. In the past I'd resign if I didn't manage to build it.. Now I just hang in there and suffer if I don't get it.

6. Women's Suffrage and SETI only so as the others don't get them.

7. All others optional (i.e. when I try to build one of the above but they ourun me so and I have to use the shields.

	16-01-2001 04:38									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

1. leo's
2.seti
3.marco polo's
4.adam smith's
5.mikes
6.hanging gardens
7.js bachs
8.issac newtons
9.Darwins voyage
10.oracle
11.coprenicus
12.UN
13.cure for cancer
14great library
15Pyramids
16great wall
17women's sufferage
18sun tzu's
19lighthouse
20Magellens
21.statue ofr liberty
22.colossus
23.king richards
24.apollo program
25,manhatten project
26.eifle tower

	16-01-2001 05:34									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

1. Workshop
I can't understand why this isn't the most important wonder to you guys. I hate having warriors in 1980.
2. Sun Tzu
Great for my style of playing.
3. Mich
Awesome stuff, holds off disorder for when I have better things to do.
4. Pyramids
Great for early game expansion, though I'm not hellbent on getting it.
5. UN
For when I can't win a war

	16-01-2001 07:11									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

-GreatLib
-MichelAngelo
-Leo's
-Darwin's
-Hoover
1) These are to win the Space Race.

-Pyramids or GreatLib
-SunTzu or Copernicus
-AdamSmith's or Newton's
-Eiffel or Liberty
-UN or Hoover
2) Those to stage a war.

Any other built comes as a bonus, and increases my chance to defeat the remaining last Ai.

	16-01-2001 07:41									#11
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i dont like marco polos embassy. i see its pretty high on some of your lists, but i got MPG and whenever i get it all the civs turn hostile. it gets really annoying

	16-01-2001 11:22									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

There are a couple of benefits with Marco Polo. One is that you can see every other tribe's Technology lists, so you know who to trade with and for what. It's quite likely there are two or three tribes on the opposite side of the map who have some of the technologies you want, but would not otherwise easily be able to commence negotiations with. By trading technologies, the AI becomes less hostile. Another benefit is to see your enemies' lists of cities.

	16-01-2001 11:46									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In SP mode.....
Hanging Gardens
Lighthouse
Suns
Great Wall
Leos
Mikes
magellans
Bachs
Statue
Manhattan ain't no fun waitin round 2b a millionaire


In mp, i now expect no wonders and any i get are a plus for my civ my strat revolves around other pressing issues


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Back from hell....i have nothing to lose

	16-01-2001 11:58									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Well no wonder is a must get but there are "nice to gets".I tend to think of wonder combos and the different strategies involved.
Like
Collosus and Garden's
Gardens and Lighthouse
Gardens and Pyramids
Gardens and Great Wall
Pyramids and SoL
Leo's and War Academy
Lighthouse and War Academy
Lighthouse and Magellan's
Cope's and Sir Isaac's
Marco Polo and Great Library
etc..


[This message has been edited by Smash (edited January 16, 2001).]

	16-01-2001 13:49									#15
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Early wonders I try to always build-

Hanging Gardens- less to worry about happiness-wise; WLT_Ds are good

Marco Polo's- Immensely helpful, especially if I'm stuck on a tiny island, which I always seem to be

Copernicus'- the early science bonus always helps

King Richard's- having a city that can churn out hordes of anything is great

Leo's- speaks for itself

	16-01-2001 16:16									#16
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Smash

How do GL and Marco Polo's work together? I've seen mention of them in combination before and wondered what the complimentary aspect is.

	16-01-2001 20:01									#17
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Another reason why I rank Hanging Gardens #1: For quite a long time Hanging Gardens not only keeps your cities from revolting, it also acts as the Colossus in the city in which it is built. Most likely you will be in Monarchy when it is built. HG grants WLTKD immediately after being built. Your city will generate trade as a Republic: one extra arrow for each square already generating one - Same effect as the Colossus!

If you find yourself forced to choose between the two, pick HG since it does double duty. Not bad for 200 shields.

EST: GL and MPE work together to help direct your science. With MPE you'll know that one civ already has, say, chivalry and you can also see that a second civ is researching it. So when it comes time to pick a tech to research, you know you don't have to pick chivalry since GL will shortly be giving it to you.

Another advantage comes when you are forced to research a "crummy tech", i.e. the list to choose from doesn't contain anything you really want. Since you have MPE, you should select to research a crummy tech that an AI civ already has. Since GL tends to load you down with other crummy techs, you can open a dialoge with the AI civ that has the rotten tech you are researching. Trade one of your GL-given crummy techs for the AI's crummy tech that you are stuck researching. At the end of your turn, you'll get a new list to research and hopefully something better will come up.

In a similar vein, with all the techs you get from GL, you can bog down the research of all AI civs by gifting them techs that stink, or that they won't use. Go ahead and give the Mongols techs like Trade, Construction, Theory of Gravity or University. They'll never make any use of them and it'll slow them down on their path to Feudalism and Sun Tzu.

	16-01-2001 20:39									#18
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To amplify on Sieve Too's comments, you can actually use MPE to direct the AIs' research. If an AI is researching a tech you already have, then gift it to them (even in MGE, an AI will usually accept a tech gift). Keep this up until the AI is researching something you don't have. Then you can wait until that AI trades the tech to another AI (or another AI discovers it independently), and the GL will give it to you. This turns the AI research cheating into an advantage for you. You can turn off science and let the AIs do the heavy lifting while you build up your civ.

	16-01-2001 20:55									#19
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Here are my pics and why...

#1 Top dog = Leo's workshop --- I usually make a beeline for Invention so I can get automatic upgrades (especially from settler to engineer)

#2 King Richard's --- if I get Engineering early enough I have time to build this in one of my less productive cities thus significantly enhancing its production

#3 Adam Smith's --- it takes care of a ton of maintenance costs for me.

#4 Lighthouse --- of all the "early" wonders, this is only one of two that I focus on...the other one is...

#4 Pyramids --- equally as important to me as Lighthouse. I build this so I don't have to worry about granaries.

#5 Magellan's --- usually I only build this if I am facing a naval strategy (i.e. my starting point was on a small island with lots of small islands surrounding it)

#6 Great Library --- this one is pretty handy, but I usually go hut tipping so I tend to get a jump on technology anyway.

#7 Great Wall --- it's okay, but with my hut tipping, I usually come across Metalurgy at some point and it becomes obsolete.

#8 Apollo Program --- a must have if I am planning to reach AC first. If I am playing *bloodlust* I won't waste the time or energy on it because I can't use it.

#9 All others --- if I can manage to build a few more I will, but the rest are simply extraneous for me.

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"My dear girl don't flatter yourself.
What I did this evening was for king and
country. You don't think it gave me any
pleasure do you?

--- James Bond

	17-01-2001 09:10									#20
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OK, first of all I don't wait for Monarchy, or a set number of cities, before I start building Wonders. When I play, I usually try to get a lot of cities down in a short time, not worrying about most improvements until republic, when you really need the happiness improvements and the science/money improvements start to really be worthwhile (This is on King level, usually). However, I always try to start a Wonder or two early. How early depends on whether I have enough cities to keep the flow of settlers coming, or if I have a good Wonder site (lots of shields, or trade specials/rivers for the Colossus).

I just find that the AI is slow in starting wonders and it never hurts to get a head start.... anyway, my favorites would be, in build order:

1) Colossus. I'm a convert to the SSC concept since I found Apolyton.

2) Hanging Gardens. Cheaper than Oracle and you don't need temples for it to work.

3) Michelangelos Chapel... for all the usual reasons

4) Isaac Newton/Copernicus. Preferably both, in the Colossus city... which means building a lot of caravans to speed up construction.

For me, those are the must-haves. I obviously want more, but most of the others are trade-offs. For instance, Pyramids are nice, but you can effect fast growth with WLTXD. Women's Suffrage is good, but if you miss it, Cure for Cancer is an alternative.... or Bach if you get the chance.

The ones I have given up on building (in SP) are Manhattan Project, Eiffel Tower, Great Library and Marco Polo. Just don't seem to get much value out of them, but I'm sure if I played differently there might be some use to the latter 2.

I always try to have at least one city building a wonder, even a less desired one, until they're all gone... just in case I discover something new that lets me build one I DO want.

STYOM

	17-01-2001 21:16									#21
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I just get all of them. If a rival builds one, then I send my forces out to "borrow" the wonder for extended period of time

I tend to find that Great Wall, Leonardo's Workshop, Sun Tzu's War Academy, U.N, Hoover Dam, and Apollo Program tend to work the best for world conquest.


[This message has been edited by Basileus of the Romans (edited January 17, 2001).]

	18-01-2001 10:49									#22
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Hi Basileus! You say Apollo helps with world conquest ... is that because you can see the whole map ... or have I missed something?
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SG(2)

	19-01-2001 00:17									#25
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Scouse-

Yes, Apollo is good for Conquest (IMHO) because you get to see the entire world. What could be more valuble than the ability to see where your enemy is?

	19-01-2001 00:19									#26
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Oh, has anyone mentioned Manhattan Project yet? It is fun to have the power of God at your disposal >D

	19-01-2001 00:23									#27
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Top Five Deity Level Wonders

(1) Hanging Gardens. I'll buy this as soon as I'm within striking distance. Allows you to turn entertainers in size 2 cities into productive citizens.

(2) Michaelangelo's Chapel. Takes care of your happiness problems for a few sizes.

(3) Leonardo's Workshop. Loss of veteran status especially hurts when going from ironclads to destroyers but the wonder is worth is for the settler to engineer conversion alone. Also very useful for turning inferior defending units in a bribed enemy city into competitive units.

(4) Statue of Liberty. Allows me to turn Communist early in the game and get rid of corruption, dramatically increasing trade arrows and beakers. Particularly helpful because by the time I get this wonder, my empire is widespread and corruption is rampant in fringe cities.

(5) Adam Smith. Dramatically increases cashflow, allowing me to bribe cities during the middle game.

	19-01-2001 03:01									#29
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Basileus - yes to fight your opposition you must know the geography! However, Marco Polo is available in the BC years. Build it! Be kind to the AI and give them a few techs for their maps - don't wait for Apollo!
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SG(2)