24-11-2002 07:00									#1
	Microsoft Internet Reversi Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Just wondering, how many people here play internet reversi, or any of the standard XP games--- I play intermittently...

And second- Do you think that we could possibly petition Microsoft to create a game matchmaking service for their 'internet' games? So that if you want to play someone on the same network as you; you don't have to click through and disrupt numerous other games until you ;hook up;?

	24-11-2002 17:23									#2
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One thing I always meant to look into but never got around to. Is reversi (Othello in the UK) a game with optimal dominant strategies?......like connect 4 or in the simplest case nought and crosses.

	25-11-2002 00:08									#3
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I played MS Internet reversi from time to time. And checkers. But I really like to know Who I am playing with, and how good they are. You know, some type of ladder thing. So, I have pretty much moved to Yahoo!Games. Their Reversi is slower and doesn't look as pretty, but at least I can see who I am playing with. In other words, I won't play with people, who've won thousands and thousands of games, and neither would I play with people, whose rating is below average. That provides for constant 'optimal challenge', and is more fun than just playing with random people with MS Reversi

	25-11-2002 04:43									#4
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actually, I think that the only way to win in reversi (also known as Backfire) is to capture at least 3 corners... IF you have 3 corners you can win... With 2 I beat someone who also had 2... but you need at least 3 to be certain... thus, I think that's the only true strategy.

vovansim- that's a good idea- I should check that out!

	25-11-2002 04:46									#5
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But is the first move decisive either way? Or like the games I mentioned is a draw the only result with optimal play?

	25-11-2002 20:21									#6
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You have to avoid the rows/columns next to the edge as long as possible and try and force your opponent into those. That way you can be the first to pick an edge position.

I don't know about the exact requirements for winning strategies, but I do know that according to my AI book, Reversi does have a fairly limited event space, and computers can easily be superior to human players.

You don't necessarily need 2 corners to win, though. I play reversi on my mobile, and beat it while I only 1 had corner (or none at all, not sure)... But then, I don't know how "smart" my mobile really is.

(Right... you can ignore what I said above. I just played against a more potent opponent and was getting slapped around as usual)

	26-11-2002 08:23									#7
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Perhaps if you move diagonally in the first two moves, you open yourself to more danger since they can hopscotch to the corner in less moves than if your 2nd move was up or down?

That's about the only difference I can see in initial moves... although I have won in every position!

I even intimidated 2 opponents away before move 10 because I was ranked EXPERT and winning or so I assume...

Usually I'm behind until the last 10 moves

Once I was down 40-10 or something of the sort; then won all 4 corners... (there were only 6 open spaces) and won 48-7 or something of that sort

	26-11-2002 21:15									#8
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So no-one knows then? More research is in order.....the net is a wonderful place.

	27-11-2002 00:30									#9
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i never played any of their internet games.

i like to play freecell or hearts from time to time, though.

	28-11-2002 01:03									#10
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Well I did some research, and bugger me, I did othello an injustice comparing it to connect 4.

Apparently there are world championships, and the best humans are better than computers. This is a key point, since simple games that you have optimal rules can be played flawlessly by computers.

	28-11-2002 01:15									#11
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And for those that are interested connect 4 is far from as obvious as I had thought, though it is apparently a win for the first player with optimal play.

	28-11-2002 06:12									#12
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-=I would think that if a computer can beat someone at chess, then a computer could beat a human at reversi...

	28-11-2002 06:33									#13
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Yes, reversi is a few steps easier than chess... But AFAIK, there is yet to come a computer chess program that can consistently and repeatedly beat the masters, rather than a specialised program designed to beat one particular player.

	28-11-2002 14:14									#14
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud -=I would think that if a computer can beat someone at chess, then a computer could beat a human at reversi...

You know, it isn't really that simple. The worst game for computers to play is go, since there next to no rules for good play......computers suck at this, even though it is 'simpler' than chess.

When it comes to chess computers are great in complex situations where all the variations come in the next few moves, but for long term positional games, again, they suck ass.

I was under the impression you could play the optimal game of othello with today's technology......I am mistaken......the best human is still best......just.

	28-11-2002 19:15									#15
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I always meant to try the net games but I actually never have. As for Othello I play the board game with my wife off and on and I also play it on my mobile. Sure enough the corners are the decisive factor.

So long...