 |
|
Al'Kimiya
|
|
1400+ years of expansion by bloodshed is not context or perspective enough? No matter how his "mission" is defined, he sure has some valid points on the politics of Islam and that is what matters. Moslems are victims of Islam.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Al'Kimiya
|
|
Valid point. However, that humanity is evil is more political correct so it's not that interesting.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Cagliostro
|
|
Mmmh - I found an interesting test about the question "whose god is more vicious" lately (yeahyeah - I know - Allah and christian god are the same, but anyway... - it's not completely serious, but most is fact based): http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news...ousgodquiz.html
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Ned
|
 |
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:23
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sava
All Islam isn't evil. The problem with Islam and other religions is that it preaches submission to God and discourages independent and rational thought. Because if those people were thinking rationally, they wouldn't be worshipping something that isn't there.
Islam in general... IMO, bad... but not because I believe all of its members are fanatics. But because it teaches submission and conformity. Christianity is just as bad if not worse. |
Yes, but Sava, in the United States, we live and let live guided by the First Amendment. Regardless of whether you believe one religion or all religions are bad, I would hope you would accept the principle that they have a right to exercise their religion, in peace, and without discrimination.
The problem we have is that al Qaida attacked us in the name of Islam. Their leader has justified all his action on the Koran. From all observation, most in the Muslim world agree with much if not everything OBL says: that we must submit to Allah or be destroyed because we are Christian, because we support the Jews of Israel, because we are decadant and because we charge interest on loans (usury).
Now we must focus on understanding Islam. If it is a violent religion, what are we supposed to do about it? If it is a peaceful religion, how can we get ride of the fundamentalists.
As of this point in time, I have seen nothing in the Koran that is peaceful. The jury is still out with me on whether Islam is a religion of peace.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dom Pedro II
|
 |
The College of New Jersey
Nov 1999
time: 05:23
|
|
The Quran may have some aggressive language, but it also has many strong peaceful points...
For example, the Quran declares all men to be created equal, and thats why on the haj to Mecca, they must don the same white robes in the baths to make no distinction between a prince and pauper.
The Quran also gives women the right to own property.
And Muhammed's wife was never forced to where the hijab and in fact she never wore it at all! That was a custom imposed by the caliphs long after Muhammed was gone. In fact, the caliphs by their very existence violated the idea of all men being equal. The real trouble with Islam is not the original writing itself but rather the corruption and misinterpretation... FUNDAMENTALIST is not the correct word for groups like al Quaeda and the Taliban because they do not accept the Quran as a whole but rather only that which is most convenient to their cause. EXTREMIST is therefore a more appropriate word.
A fundamentalist, in fact, would be better for the simple fact that they would take the written word (all of it) over the established traditions that do not pre-date the Quran.
In fact,
A few other points though:
1. With regards to Kashmir, how naive is it to think that the Hindu Indians are not doing similar actions there as well? Its well-documented that the Indians there aren't exactly spreading the love either.
2. There is little difference between Muslim extremist terrorism and state-sponsored terrorism brought to you by nations like Israel and the United States if one uses the definition that the Bush administration has been using. Bush's war is one such example... afterall, they defined terrorism as an act meant to coerce, and I would say that threatening to bomb the hell out of one's country if they don't agree to his demands is an act of coercion.
3. I wouldn't exactly say that the high-profile members of the Christian right here in the USA have exactly been preaching the ideas of truth and love lately with regards to their fellow men. Personally, I think it'd be pretty hard to assemble another such group of sleaze.
4. Does not the Bible and Old Testament have passages that might not seem somewhat... harsh or violent? Moses killed all of the Egyptian first-born sons. God obliterated Soddom and Gamora. He flooded the entire planet killing not only all of its inhabitants but all of its animal and landed plant life with the exception of whatever was on the Ark. Now, any Christian might be quick to say "but God was killing the evil people" or "Moses was trying to free his people from tyranny"... and thats true, but isn't that exactly what the Quran is saying? Aren't the same people that the Jewish and Christian Gods were so willing to smite the same ones that Allah is as well? Sure, again a Christian might say that no the language is directed at Christians and Jews but is that because that's what it says, or because these are the people who have been targetted by the Muslim extremists?
Frankly, the western powers had no trouble with the infidels being the Soviets when they invaded Afghanistan. And the CIA had no problem with language of the Quran when the bribed an Afghan shaikh to declare a holy war against the Soviets... the same holy war that has been carried over to include us. But I'll digress from politics... thats another debate.
But to address the topical problem: Only a Martin Luther of the Islamic world who gets back to the written word and away from the religious heirarchy can really save Islam and the Middle East now from total degradation.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wernazuma III
|
 |
Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:23
|
|
There are passages in the Quran who allow to interpret respect towards the "religions of the book". Especially the Christians have some nice verses.
Quran 5, 48 says that while pagans and Jews are Islam's worst enemies, the "Nazarenes" are most friendly to them. This is important because Q 5 is one of the last chapters - and the latter chapters "beat" contradictory previous passages.
There's some verses in Quran that when it comes to Christians and Jews "God is enough as a judge" (Q 2, 137) and that muslims are only allowed to use words not force (Q 3, 319)
Yet, Quran 9, 29ff. (quoted above) clearly tells what to do with stubborn Christians and Jews...
It's a stupid problem: Muhammad thought that the "Monotheists" who worship Allah would unite against the pagans. He thought that Jews and Christians would continue to be Jews and Christians but accept him as prophet and ignoring those parts in their holy scriptures which contradict the Quran (you can be Muslim AND Christian, i.e. follower of the prophet Jesus, but you may not regard him as son of God, nor believe in trinity...)
Deducting from Q 9, 29 and the tradition (Muh.'s biography) the islamic law has constructed a system of treaties for possible coexistence with the ahl al-kitab (people of the books): The Dimma, which means paying a special tax (the djizya) and contains very discriminating parts. Being Jew or Christian is not a "human right" in Islam, it can rather be a hereditary right as long as they ysupport the dominance and expansion of Islam by accepting the discriminating treaty (which forbids building of new churches, orders stigmatized clothing among others) and "don't bother muslims". Before muslim courts, the testimony of Dhimmi's doesn't count against muslims, so you can guess three times what happens if your muslim neighbor didn't like you...
|
|
| |
|
|
|
gsmoove23
|
|
Yeah, my God, anyone who starts saying good things about Sharon goes straight to the loony bin. Well, not really, but in a perfect world...
You know, you can find a lot of references to violence against christians and jews in the Koran. Does anyone stop to consider that this might have something to do with the fact that Islam came after both religions? The Bible has some harsh words for Jews who do not believe in Christ, but stops short of any ugly violence because... early christians were jews. Its that simple. It took the Catholic church, many years later, to indoctrinate its followers with antisemitism. Of course, the Jewish texts or the Old Testament don't even mention violence against Islam or Christianity. :hmm:
However, both Christianity and Judaism in their texts are not too forgiving to those who do not accept their teachings. Its a question of modern politics and not necessarily religion accept when its used as a way to divide people.
If Islam is at risk of being hijacked by extremism as I admit may be true, the question should be how do we assist moderate and enlightened muslims in retaking their religion. Simply righting off Islam as a violent religion does more hurt then anything and besides it is extremely hipocritical(sp?). Fostering and supporting enlightened religion and listening and acting on very real complaints which adherents to these moderate religions might have is a far better way to display to the Islamic world that they do have a voice and violence and the hardline isn't necessary.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Wernazuma III
|
|
Decolonize!
Aug 2000
time: 06:23
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dom Pedro II
The Quran may have some aggressive language, but it also has many strong peaceful points... |
Some? It's full of this kind of talking!
quote:
For example, the Quran declares all men to be created equal, and thats why on the haj to Mecca, they must don the same white robes in the baths to make no distinction between a prince and pauper. |
That's right, so does Christianity and everyone who isn't racist. Their criterium is not race but faith, as with most religions. Fact is that every faith other than Islam is sinful and considered to be a crime against God (except maybe for Christians and Jews who "act in accordance with God's laws" (i.e. the islamic ones)
quote:
The Quran also gives women the right to own property. |
 
quote:
In fact, the caliphs by their very existence violated the idea of all men being equal. |
Not at all. There's nothing in the Quran against hierarchy and the umma (Islamic community) is supposed to have a caliph as a head (don't ask me for the quranic foundation, but that's the common opinion of Orientalists in this matter)
quote:
The real trouble with Islam is not the original writing itself but rather the corruption and misinterpretation... FUNDAMENTALIST is not the correct word for groups like al Quaeda and the Taliban because they do not accept the Quran as a whole but rather only that which is most convenient to their cause. EXTREMIST is therefore a more appropriate word. |
It's a myth that the "poor peaceful Islam" is abused by extremists. Granted, the "fundamentalist" viewpoint is not the only possible "authentic" interpretation of the Quran, there can be much more liberal authentic opinions in accordance with the Islam. But the fact remains that the Quran is the source of fundamentalist viewpoints and provides the aggressive rhetorics and that's not "perverting" it - it is not really astounding as Muhammad lived in the 7th century AD, the major problem is that by making his "visions" and actions "divine will" he conserved this medieval ethics for eternity!
quote:
4. Does not the Bible and Old Testament have passages that might not seem somewhat... harsh or violent? Moses killed all of the Egyptian first-born sons. God obliterated Soddom and Gamora. He flooded the entire planet killing not only all of its inhabitants but all of its animal and landed plant life with the exception of whatever was on the Ark. Now, any Christian might be quick to say "but God was killing the evil people" or "Moses was trying to free his people from tyranny"... and thats true, but isn't that exactly what the Quran is saying? Aren't the same people that the Jewish and Christian Gods were so willing to smite the same ones that Allah is as well? Sure, again a Christian might say that no the language is directed at Christians and Jews but is that because that's what it says, or because these are the people who have been targetted by the Muslim extremists? |
I always had problems with those parts in the bible (actually the whole book, but these especially...)
quote:
But to address the topical problem: Only a Martin Luther of the Islamic world who gets back to the written word and away from the religious heirarchy can really save Islam and the Middle East now from total degradation. |
Martin Luther was not so much more peacefuil than the Catholicism, the other reformator Calvin established a highly intolerant Theocracy in Switzerland...
What they need is a development similar to our enlightenment, but it has to be carried by society as a whole, which doesn't seem to happen soon, quite the reverse.
|
|
| |
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:23.
Apolyton Time is 00:23. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
25-11-2002 18:47
|