25-11-2002 01:16									#1
	Peaceful Islam? Suffering from ads?

Across the world we see repeated acts of violence against Christian American and her Christian allies, against the Jews of Israel, against the Catholics of East Timor, against the Christians of Nigeria and the Sudan, against Christian Russia against Hindu's in India and today against a number of Hindu temples in Jammu and Kashmir.

We are told that there is much anger in the Muslim world because of America. We are told that the Muslim world is angry because of America's policies - particularly because of its support of Israel - not because of her culture and religion.

But the pattern of religious violence across the world is far broader than simply America and her policies. The pattern suggests that Islam is in a period of growing violence against other religions and cultures in general.

If Islam is truly a peaceful religion, it seems to have been hijacked by violent extremists. I don't know the truth of this debate. But I see Islam in its current state as a global threat to peace.

How do we fix this? Or better, can we fix this?

	25-11-2002 01:23									#2
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Fanatical Muslimes are pissing off everybody in the world, ranging from America, to Africa, to Australia, to China, to India, to Russia, and god knows whom else. It's about time that good Muslimes Start taking it back from those psychos ASAP and reforming it to adapt to the modern world in next few decades.

Because otherwise, the rest of the world may actually decide to eradicate Islam as a form of "plague".

	25-11-2002 01:23									#3
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Read this.

	25-11-2002 01:24									#4
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Who controls most of the Muslim population?

Saddam, Khattami, Assad, Musharaff, house Saud, Arafat, Quadaffi, Mubarak, Hussein...

Some of them are better than the others, some are worse. But nevertheless all those regimes are oppresive dictatures that encourage radical Islam, militarism and anti-semitism.

	25-11-2002 01:27									#5
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anti-semitism??? they are semittes...

anyway, the israelis are worse than the arabs, end of story.

	25-11-2002 01:27									#6
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Why on earth do people think Saddam's Iraq is some hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism?

	25-11-2002 01:29									#7
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Peaceful Islam? Dead Osama? Smart Bush?

	25-11-2002 01:46									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Viking Berserk anyway, the israelis are worse than the arabs, end of story.

Israelis don't go around blowing up restaurants, pizzerias for fun.

Israelis don't hijack civilian airplanes and crash them into buildings.

You Euros need to stop finding excuses for Muslime psychos.

	25-11-2002 01:53									#9
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Since the end of the cold war and even more so after the attack against WTC the western world, and the US in particular are looking for a new way of dividing up the world. This has lead to one of the world religions has gotten the bulk of bad press. It's arguable if the religion is the vital variable to understand what's happening in the world.

Remember the years of the cold war. Everything that was portrayed as a threat was painted in red. That's not to say that it was wrong in all chases. However we have to remember that different moments in the world didn't turn to Marxism-leninism out of thin air. The conflicts could be about pretty much anything between heaven and earth but in the rhetorics it has to be simplified. If you're against a country or region that defines itself by their political and economical system you take the opposite stand. Now communism is no longer an issue and there's very little support, moral or otherwise, to win by being communist. Look at PLO et al. for example. The conflict that PLO is taking part in is still the same but the world around it has changed so much that they need to use other rhetorics to gain legitimity for their objectives. Or why not ETA? That ETA was/is Marxist-leninist has much more to do with franco and his habit of calling all his enemies for communists than the real conflict at hand. Or men like Castro and Ho Chi Minh. Their positions in the global game was at least as much a result of the cold war as their own making and their struggle.

So what does this teach us? That it's not a good way to find simple solutions, to find channels on Mars. Many of the so called islamic conflicts are old and are not really connected at all. There's a network of spoiled saudi-arabians and men at the white house that wants it to be so but it's not a global muslim conspiracy (maybe it's the zionists all along ). Al Quaida is just a pale and weak copy of the soviet union with not that much influence.

It's all rhetorics. It says a lot more about the countries and people that claim it than the different conflicts that are said to be parts of this.

That's all for now. Thank you for your attention and have a nice day!

	25-11-2002 01:59									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Who controls most of the Muslim population? Saddam, Khattami, Assad, Musharaff, house Saud, Arafat, Quadaffi, Mubarak, Hussein... Some of them are better than the others, some are worse. But nevertheless all those regimes are oppresive dictatures that encourage radical Islam, militarism and anti-semitism.

Saddam Hussein is in no way a radical muslim, I have read. He is just a crazy.
Quadaffi is a socialist, and is trying to pull his country as far away from islam as his people will allow him.
Khattami is your prototype moderate islamist.
Mubarak is doing what he can to control radical islam.
Musharaff is doing what he can to control radical islam.

	25-11-2002 02:15									#11
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I wonder when they'll begin burning down churches in US and Europe as well

	25-11-2002 02:35									#12
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The al Queda terrorists are to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity.

Just because there are some wackos within a religion, that doesn't mean the religion is non-peaceful.

P.S. Thue

	25-11-2002 02:37									#13
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Here are few choice words from today's talk shows on one of the major sponsors of radidal Islam:

Saudi leaders "have to decide which side they're on," Lieberman said on CBS'"Face the Nation."

"For too many generations they have pacified and accommodated themselves to the most extreme, fanatical, violent elements of Islam, and those elements have now turned on us and the rest of the world."

	25-11-2002 02:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Zkribbler The al Queda terrorists are to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity. Just because there are some wackos within a religion, that doesn't mean the religion is non-peaceful. P.S. Thue

Then, we need the peaceful elements to stand up for peace - to declare the radicals the evil villans they are.

	25-11-2002 02:48									#15
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The peaceful elements have been shot by american or russian made weapons decades ago. Most of these problem-areas eats up reason and moderation very fast.

	25-11-2002 02:49									#16
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Ned, they have been standing up. F'instance:

The Yemeni government cooperated in our attack on that car with six al Quadas in it a week or two ago.

The Indonesians have broken up the cell that launched the attack in Bali and have captured its leader.

The Pakistanis were crucial allies in our attack on fundamentalist Afghanistan.

	25-11-2002 02:52									#17
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Btw, i would hardly call the indonesian or the pakistianian government for "peaceful elements". The human rights trackrecord isn't that nice if you understand my understatement.

	25-11-2002 03:02									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Lord Merciless You Euros need to stop finding excuses for Muslime psychos.

But then who will be anti-semetic for them? They'll have to go back to doing it for themselves (which it seems like won't be too big of a problem).

	25-11-2002 03:05									#19
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quote: Saudi leaders "have to decide which side they're on," Lieberman said on CBS'"Face the Nation."

Uh, Saudi Arabia is on America's side, US supplied them with high tech weapons and planes, osama was angry at the saudis (=> dictatorship) because they shaked hands with the US!

	25-11-2002 03:06									#20
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Like I have said before please do not judge a faith by the lunatic fringe.

All you need to do is look at OBL letter (in another thread) to see how he tries quite badly to mix fact with fiction and truth with lies and exageration and at frequent points becomes very bizarre. Hes a nutter pure and simple talking way above his actually importance.

If you stop and talk to the majority of Muslims they will say the same (I say that with the full confidence that any of OBL supporters are easily spotted as they are ussually standing around sporting beards, shouting and trying to perfect Islamic-mad-eye while talking about death war hatred before going to pick up their benefits and going home to a nice dinner cooked by mum).

OBL does not represent anything other then an extreme, and our prophet said never be an extremist.

He also warned that anybody who impeeded a priest going about his work would become his enemy, which should shed some light on the recent attacks on churches etc.

Lets not let the fanatics dictate the agenda and turn us away from each other, because that would be giving in to evil.


no, no, No.

Aaahh yes thats much better



a praying smilie how nice

	25-11-2002 03:19									#21
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wait, you mean not all of them want to suicide bomb me?

THE MEDIA HAS BEEN LYING TO ME. WHO CAN I TRUST NOW?

	25-11-2002 03:23									#22
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Islam wasn't always violent, and during a large part of it's history it was a lot more moderate than christianity.

Also, Islam is being used as a tool of violence, not the other way around. Islam isn't the source of the violence, it's a mode of it.

	25-11-2002 16:50									#23
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Saint Marcus: I'm currently working on a paper on this issue and if you come to take a look into the Quran, you'll find an extremely aggressive language there, full of "don't trust the infidels", "fight them to death if they turn their back onto you", "fight them all, as they all fight you etc.", "they're cursed and use to kill prophets", "God may kill them" etc.
Comared to a huge amount of warlike rhetorics, the moderate parts are few.


This doesn't imply that a moderate, tolerant Islam is impossible, but Islam is even much less "used" for violence than Christianity was only "used". Islam, like all major religions leaves much space open to interpretation and depending on the situation. Yet, it provides an exceptional amount of justification of anti-judaism (they're the Muslim's worst enemies (Q 5, 48) who are always treacherous, spit on treaties and kill prophets)...

A very enlightening read is Quran Sure 9, 1-39, great stuff!

quote: 1. A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:- 2. Go ye, then, for four months (backwards and forwards, as ye will), throughout the land, but know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah (by your falsehood) but that Allah will cover with shame those who reject Him. 3. And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous chastisement to those who reject Faith. 4. (But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you. So fulfill your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous. 5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and pay Zakat, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful. 6. If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the Word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge. 7. How can there be a covenant, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the Sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous. 8. How (can there be such a covenant), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they please you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked. 9. The Words of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His Way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done. 10. In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds. 11. But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and pay Zakat,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand. 12. But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and attack you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained. 13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and attacked you first? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! 14. Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, and disgrace them, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers, 15. And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. 16. Do you think that you would be left alone while Allah has not yet known those among you who strive with might and main, and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the (community of) Believers? And Allah is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do. 17. It is not for such as join gods with Allah, to maintain the mosques of Allah while they witness against their own souls to infidelity. The works of such bear no fruit: In Fire shall they dwell. 18. The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and pay Zakat, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance. 19. Do ye consider the giving of drink to pilgrims, or the maintenance of the Sacred Mosque, equal to (the pious service of) those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and strive with might and main in the Cause of Allah. They are not equal in the sight of Allah. and Allah guides not those who do wrong. 20. Those who believe, and emigrate and strive with might and main, in Allah's Cause, with their goods and their persons, have the highest rank in the sight of Allah. they are the people who will achieve (salvation). 21. Their Lord doth give them Glad tidings of a Mercy from Himself, of His good pleasure, and of Gardens for them, wherein are delights that endure: 22. They will dwell therein for ever. Verily with Allah is a reward, the greatest (of all). 23. O ye who believe! take not for protectors your fathers and your brothers if they love Infidelity above Faith: if any of you do so, they do wrong. 24. Say: If it be that your fathers, your sons, your brothers, your mates, or your kindred; the wealth that ye have gained; the commerce in which ye fear a decline: or the dwellings in which ye delight - are dearer to you than Allah, or His Messenger, or the striving in His cause;- then wait until Allah brings about His Decision: and Allah guides not the rebellious. 25. Assuredly Allah did help you in many battle-fields and on the day of Hunain: Behold! your great numbers elated you, but they availed you naught: the land, for all that it is wide, did constrain you, and ye turned back in retreat. 26. But Allah did pour His calm on the Messenger and on the Believers, and sent down forces which ye saw not: He punished the Unbelievers; thus doth He reward those without Faith. 27. Again will Allah, after this, turn (in mercy) to whom He will: for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Merciful. 28. O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise. 29. Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. 30. The Jews call Ùzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth! 31. They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords beside Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One God. there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him). 32. Fain would they extinguish Allah's Light with their mouths, but Allah will not allow but that His Light should be perfected, even though the Unbelievers may detest (it). 33. It is He Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to cause it to prevail over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest (it). 34. O ye who believe! there are indeed many among the priests and anchorites, who in falsehood devour the wealth of men and hinder (them) from the Way of Allah. And there are those who hoard gold and silver and spend it not in the Way of Allah: announce unto them a most grievous chastisement- 35. On the Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell, and with it will be branded their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs.- "This is the (treasure) which ye hoarded for yourselves: taste ye, then, the (treasures) ye buried!" 36. The number of months in the sight of Allah is twelve (in a year)- so ordained by Him the day He created the heavens and the earth; of them four are sacred: that is the right religion. So wrong not yourselves therein. And fight the Pagans all together as they fight you all together. But know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves. 37. Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to agree with the number of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But Allah guideth not those who reject Faith. 38. O ye who believe! what is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the Cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. 39. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things

From: http://www.orst.edu/groups/msa/quran/quran/9.html

	25-11-2002 17:02									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Viking Berserk anti-semitism??? they are semittes...

Useless semantics. Whatever the official definition is, anti-semitism is used only in the context of Jews.

Will anti-Jewry sound less wrong to you?

quote: anyway, the israelis are worse than the arabs, end of story.

Sure. We gas our citizens, we burn cities to the ground because of unhappiness, we brainwash our citizens to hate everything Arab and Muslim, we send money to Al Quaeda, our Rabbis incite against the west.

Those evil Jews.

	25-11-2002 17:15									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Thue Saddam Hussein is in no way a radical muslim, I have read. He is just a crazy.

And yet he directly supports terrorist organizations.

quote: Quadaffi is a socialist, and is trying to pull his country as far away from islam as his people will allow him.

So he might be a small exception.

quote: Khattami is your prototype moderate islamist.

And yet supports international terrorist organizations and the destruction of Israel.

quote: Mubarak is doing what he can to control radical islam.

And allows anti semitic programs on his state TV.

quote: Musharaff is doing what he can to control radical islam.

The only radical Islam he tries to control is the one that goes against his regime.

	25-11-2002 18:19									#26
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I think it's time for this link again:

http://main.faithfreedom.org

	25-11-2002 18:28									#27
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A very stupid link indeed.

	25-11-2002 18:33									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Kropotkin A very stupid link indeed.

How so?

	25-11-2002 18:40									#29
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Have you read it's so called "mission statement"? For example:

"But we shall win. We shall win because light is more powerful than darkness and truth is more potent than lies. Islam is outwardly powerful today. Its followers are fanatics and violent. But it is not invincible. Islam is absolute darkness and as such is susceptible to light. Islam is founded on lies and therefore will crumble with a little blow of the truth. To fight Islamic terrorism we have to fight Islam itself because Islam IS terrorism. This becomes clear by just reading few pages from the Quran."

maybe you're a nut as well but I'm not taking statements from people that express themselves in this way seriously. Why not look up a site like it about the jews or the commies while you're at it?

	25-11-2002 18:44									#30
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX wait, you mean not all of them want to suicide bomb me? THE MEDIA HAS BEEN LYING TO ME. WHO CAN I TRUST NOW?

The president(s) of the United States, they never lie!