25-11-2002 03:24									#1
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Well I guess we know what team Flash went to. Now we know who to aim for later. j/k

Interesting the latest off-comment by Flash about sneak attacking us with another team.

Which brings up an interesting question: Sneak attacks? Do we go for preemptive strikes where we declare war the same turn we are in battle with them, or do we do the honorable thing and do not do sneak attacks?

I am in support of both ways...to some extent. If we are on the same island or situated next to another civ and they treat us honorably, then I would hope that if in case a war breaks out between us and them that it would not be us sneak attacking them in their sleep.

BUT on the other hand, if we are being mistreated by another nation or PAIR of nations, and it seems that war cannot be diplomatically solved or prevented, then I am in full support of the sneak attack to protect our borders and interests.

Oh, and we need more info on Jon Miller's Team...

	25-11-2002 18:06									#2
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well, it goes a little off the subject of this thread, but I have a specific idea about sneak attacks: I think it would be a strategically wrong thing if we would warn people 1 turn in advance that they will be attacked by us, so in that case sneak attacks (as in attacking in the same turn as war is declared) are the way to go.

But there is another point, which I consider the honor part here: I'd say that whoever we are planning on attacking, whatever the situation, we warn them in the same turn of the coming war, and offer them some deal so they can stop it before it started. You can call it extortion, but I would never extort anything: it's just an option they have to avert war, and never is bluf (is this English?). And the price we ask can very well be higher then our objectives: we could ask for half their cities, all techs, all gold. If they disagree, We attack, and slug it out.

There is no reason why it has to be in the same day as we want to start a war, if some other team has its turn between us and the one we are attacking, we could send it after the target's turn has finished, and before our started. If they don't respond, or send us away, we go to war as planned.

DeepO

	25-11-2002 22:25									#3
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quote: Originally posted by DeepO and never is bluf (is this English?)

Yes, but it's "bluff".

I think that's a fine idea, it is only the sporting thing to give our targets a chance to save themselves. We should only offer them a pre-emptive truce if we really intend to attack, of course, I agree with that part too.
Lying is bad, m'kay?

	26-11-2002 02:58									#4
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I agree with all said here.

Preemptive strikes when the situations looks really really bleak sound good as well, in a time where war cannot be averted.

In the words of Nikita Krueschev "We will bury you"

(planning to use that quote later before a declaration of war, muwahaha)

	26-11-2002 19:38									#5
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The only problem I see with a "half-turn forewarning" is that the other teams could delay. If we tell them that our turn is coming up and they'd better give us Monarchy or else, they could stall until their turn.

I think this is a minor point. However, it goes to show that there will be times for pure sneak attack, and times for extortion (and, of course, times for peaceful negotiations). I hope honour will not prevent us from doing either.


Dominae

	26-11-2002 22:19									#6
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I'm not sure about the pure sneak attacks, but perhaps this is only my isolated view: I would make it part of our charter that we never sneak attack, and always leave the others the chance to back out (given they are willing to pay the price). I agree it needs some more thinking as to when or how we would be going to send ultimatums, but in principal it seems a very honorable thing to do, one of the few things we as a team could distinguish ourselves in.

Of course, this doesn't rule out sneak attacks completely: if we ask for all a team's cities (except the capital), within half a day time, they aren't likely to go for it, leaving us a classical sneak attack anyway.

DeepO

	26-11-2002 22:26									#7
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If we do agree not to do sneak attacks, that's fine with me. I'm just saying that I have no qualms about them. If civs are smart enough about intelligence (weird phrase, I know), they'll know when a "sneak" attack is coming. That's part of the game.

Asking for all a civ's cities right before our turn sounds to me less honorable than just sneak-attacking in the first place. It's like we're pretending to give them a chance to react, when in fact we're not.


Dominae

	26-11-2002 22:37									#8
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Well... I figured that those deals, like all other diplo deals, would be negotiable. By starting with asking them all their civs, we could diminish our price a bit, an leave them 2

No, the example is a bit extreme, but in many cases we have a primary objective (:take the city with the iron), and a few secundary ones. If we would be able to get our primary goal(s), and a few of our secundary ones in a bribe, it would be good for both sides. The only thing we don't get is any leader...

DeepO

	28-11-2002 00:24									#9
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As the newly appointed ambassador to Vox Controli (AKA Jon Millers team), I have been studing some of the public mateial out there on this group.

Current Members:

BetaHound
Dissident
Eli
flash9286
Jon Miller
Wittlich

The group looks like there is a bit of forum experience with some newcommers sprinkled in.

They are the smallest of the teams out there. They will likely see (potentially) more growth as other teams clamp down on "registration" and gravity takes over. This could lead to a group of people with chips on their shoulders with something to prove (flash for example). I hope not if only for thier own enjoyment. If true, the potential for instability can be quite high.

Expect them to be the least organized team.
It seems that they operate in a non-linear power structure. Any one of them can speak for the team. They seem to relish the idea that there is no organization. Time will tell if this is an advantage or disadvantage. Assuming they do not grow, I do not expect a lack of structure to be too much of a problem. If there is growth, they will suffer growing pains, you kow.... the ones that are happening for many of the teams now.

We will likely have to PM their leader (if there is one) and force the single point of cotact issue once it comes to it.

The small team can mean efficency, but all signs point to scattered.

That is it for now.


Mss

	28-11-2002 01:21									#10
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Very interesting. Their leader is surely Jon Miller. Every person who has started a team so far has been the first to lead them.

Eli and Betahound are somewhat familiar to me, although I don't remember them in the C3DG...anyone know anything about these people?

	28-11-2002 04:23									#11
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Wittlich and Dissident have been around, mostly in General.

	28-11-2002 04:47									#12
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Dissident, Eli, Jon Miller, and Wittlich have all been around and are well known on some other fora (esp OT).

None are particularly expert at Civ3, but all are avid civ'ers AFAIK. Perhaps they are just more quiet about their skills than others.

I regard them as quite dangerous due to erratic behavior. I believe their plan is to alternate the player's hat on a monthly basis. Each member of the team will enjoy absolute control while playing. They may refer to the others for advice, but nothing I've seen would require that. That means that while Jon or Eli or Diss are playing, we may be able to live and let live (I get along with them and they generally get along with most people) flash could totally change everything on a whim if and when he gets the hat. For that matter, there could be no assurances that any of them would not totally reverse their stance towards us at any changing of the player.

For those reasons, I would put them quite high on our priority list for elimination if practical, even though Jon Miller and I get along very well and are almost 'friends' from other places. I knew he was thinking of launching a team, and I encouraged him.

	29-11-2002 00:07									#13
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NYE
Thank you for stating that more clearly.

Mss

	01-12-2002 02:27									#14
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If they're going to be Persia and start anywhere near us, we will want to take them out ASAP, whether alone or in concert with another team.

	01-12-2002 02:39									#15
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Man, the first eliminated team is going to be sore for sure. It's too bad, but that's life...or at least that's Civilization for ya.

	01-12-2002 08:50									#16
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Has anyone thought to ask them whether they have any policies to ensure some continuity to their foreign relations as the active player changes?

	01-12-2002 14:08									#17
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That is a good question/suggestion nbarclay.

	01-12-2002 15:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Meshelic Man, the first eliminated team is going to be sore for sure. It's too bad, but that's life...or at least that's Civilization for ya.

You do realise, this could happen to use too, don't you

	01-12-2002 15:44									#19
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quote: Originally posted by alva848 You do realise, this could happen to use too, don't you

Yes I do. We must prevail. Hopefully we get a good start in some grasslands or plains, and aren't near too many tundra or desert tiles. It's interesting. We have a great team, really great team. But you never know, we may be attacked early on, or in a moment when we are vulnerable. Hopefully this will never happen, but we cannot rule it out.

I realize we may be either first, or second, or third, or the worst, last. ....the odds are 1 in 6, just on the number of teams. Those odds are changed immediately once the game is begun.

I'm confident, but realistic. We may not make it, but I know for sure that if we have the opportunity to do so, we will succeed wherever we go. Or at least die trying. And that's a nobility that possibly alot of teams may not have the chance to show. If we lose then we will certainly take as many with us as we can.

	05-12-2002 00:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Has anyone thought to ask them whether they have any policies to ensure some continuity to their foreign relations as the active player changes?

As ambassador, I have thought of it. Continuity is a real concern of mine. I decided to give them a few turns before I asked them and pressed the issue.

As of now I assume that Jon Miller would be my first contact.

I will follow up in the next few days..

Mss

	05-12-2002 01:06									#21
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Actually Mss, flash is playing AFAIK. Maybe you should contact him as well. I'm not sure this team is going to be easy to be an ambassador to, so I wish you good luck!

DeepO

	05-12-2002 02:28									#22
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Thanks...

I've got a sinking, "Herding Cats" feeling...

Mss

	05-12-2002 02:49									#23
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Go for Eli, he's currently playing as much as Flash is
(damn, the 'Flash' always take me back to the army
where we had to look for cover in case the bomb was dropped *sigh*

sergeant:"flash!!"
50 w*nkers: running against each other, avoiding puddles at all costs , looking for a soft spot to lie down )

	20-12-2002 03:05									#24
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Hi Mesh and MSS.

Just wondering if anything has come about after I forwarded that note to Mesh.

	20-12-2002 07:37									#25
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Not yet. You read it, right?

They just basically want directions to our civ, in the name of trade and exchange.

I still recommend isolationist policies, although we should expand as planned. Hopefully we can have a few cities by the time we make contact.....

	20-12-2002 07:47									#26
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I guess I was enquiring about whether we were on freindly terms and such. I didn't see the ambassadors posting so... *poke*.

And I agree entirely, isolation is best for now.

	21-12-2002 22:10									#27
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Hmm...
This isolation policy is starting to cost us, in human relation credit, i don't know if it makes that policy a wrong thing, but shouldn't we soften it a bit?
The way i see it, exchanging general info like quadrant on the minimap is not such a big deal, and might win us some credit in their eyes. Remember, this game is between people, we have to take the human element into consideration. As it seems now, we might be alone, or perhaps with one team only, shouldn't we at least try to find who is next to us?

I think this isolation should be broken, if only with a limited information trade.

	21-12-2002 22:23									#28
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You know what? I think you're right.
Moreover, we should be more specific than just which quadrant.

	22-12-2002 01:11									#29
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I know i said differently at first, but for now , we first have to find out, how our lands looks. (IE island or not)

btw: Zeit, as a ambassador, you can make it look as if you agree with GOW, and say you are powerless, that it's not your 'fault'.
Tell them that YOU share their view, just that GS as a whole does not...

	22-12-2002 01:56									#30
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quote: Originally posted by zeit Hmm... This isolation policy is starting to cost us, in human relation credit, i don't know if it makes that policy a wrong thing, but shouldn't we soften it a bit? The way i see it, exchanging general info like quadrant on the minimap is not such a big deal, and might win us some credit in their eyes. Remember, this game is between people, we have to take the human element into consideration. As it seems now, we might be alone, or perhaps with one team only, shouldn't we at least try to find who is next to us? I think this isolation should be broken, if only with a limited information trade.

First, we already went through this. It was the opinion of a majority of us that we be isolationist. There are very good reasons for that beyond whether Jon Miller or flash, or Trip think we are heroes or chumps.

Second, it will not be long now before we can review that policy. We will make contact shortly, or discover that we are on an island. Once that happens, then the reasons to not trade quadrant information will dramatically diminish. Although, what would be the point if we are alone on an island?