25-11-2002 12:22									#1
	The Unit "Think Tank" Remove this text

- Psychic - a unit that is devoted to being psychic for the paticluar government. He/She is sort of like a spy yet doesn't do any damage. He/She only finds out information about the other faction(s).

- Spy - A unit that Sabotages other factions plans and/or anything else. Also can be used for informational purposes yet does not do it well.

~Added ones~

- transport helicopter
(can transport one infantry unit X tiles away. cant land on slopes, sea, 'fungus', tile occupied by another player, can take of from carrier)

- fighter
(airunit for air-to-air combat [100%], can take of from carrier)

- attackplane
(airunit for air-to-air[40%] and air-to-ground[60%] combat, can trake off from carrier)

- bomber
(airunit for air-to-ground[100%] combat, cant take off from carrier)

- support ship
(supplies ships)

- escort ship
(fast, light armored ship to escort carrier, support ships and landers)

- landingcraft
(can carry X units over shallow waters)

- transport ship
(supplies ships[10%],ground[10%] units, transports X units over all sea tiles)

- Infantry: Guys with guns. Depend on terrain for most of their defensive skill, with armour playing only a small role.

- Rovers: Quads, trikes and bikes. Fast, and reasonably deadly, especially over flat ground. Little armour, and much less ability to use terrain defensively.

- Mechanised infantry: Guys with guns in armoured vehicles. Reasonable armour, and able to use terrain quite well. Much faster than infantry, slightly less than the rover.

- Armour: Tanks. Powerful weapons, strong armour, pretty fast. Can't use terrain very well.

- attacksub
(invisible for surface-radar, can only be spotted by X type units, can only attack naval units[100%])

- tacticalsub
(invisible for surface-radar, can only be spotted by Xtype units, can only attack naval units[30%], can launch any missile[70%])

- commandship
(naval unit that can only be build ones for every 10 other naval units in your military, give a morale + modifier to ships in X tile radius, and sees submarines in the direct area)

- transporters
(airunit for transport of tanks[85%], supplies[15%] bases and groundunits, cant land on carrier)

- C[lose]A[ir]S[upport] unit
(airunit for support of ground units, air-to-ground attack against units that are not in a base is 150% of normal)

- Skimmers: Very lightly armoured boats. Can't travel across oceans, only suitable for rivers and coastal areas. Able to use terrain effectively, only problem is that the sea is generally lacking in terrain. A naval equivalent of infantry.

- Hydrofoil: Speedy, oceangoing boat. Not much in the way of weapons, but tougher than the skimmers.

- Destroyer: Medium armour, little terrain using ability, plenty of weapons. Fast.

- Cruiser: Heavy armour (including a double-hull option), unable to utilise terrain, cramed with weapons. Quite fast.

-Cargo Plane:
Carrying troops, Vehicles, and so forth. Similar to the C-130 yet more advanced.

- Carrier sub: A large submarine that can be equipped with strike subs, aircraft, helicopters or missiles, depending on what you fit to it. Terrain-using: poor.

- Predator sub: A small/medium sized sub with a wide array of possible roles, including carrier sub killing, anti-aircraft duty, coastal attack and stealthy observation. Very fast. Terrain-using: good

- Strike sub: A small sub which is treated like an underwater aircraft. Doesn't have the range of an aircraft, and can only travel through water, but is still deadly to shipping and coastal installations. Terrain-using: medium.

- Flying sub: This is a machine that can swim through water and fly through the air. It's launched from a base or carrier. It can dodge air defences by going underwater, and sea defences by flying. Terrain using: medium.

- Bubble sub: create gaseous bubble where it can move quickly almost like airplane. The disadvantage is that it generates like mad, giving away its position en-route.
Scout blimp: early scouting aircraft. Slow, increased sighting radius...

- Burrowing unit: can move underground. Can bypass city defenses, ignores zoc's...

- "Spider-scout": fast (all terrain as flat), has multiple attacks (?)...

- Von Neumann nano probes: A mini device used to explore, and spy. More information on this unit is located in this thread.

-Task force unit: A Task Force such as "The Delta Force" in USA. This unit would do a variety of Special Operations

-Demolition Squad: This unit would go and blow up different enemy buildings such as improvements that were made upon the land. They would do it better than a regular unit.

-Terrorists: A neutral unit that would be roaming the globe destroying things much like mindworms in SMAC. These terrorists would do massive damage to everything.

-J.B.-

Last edited by Jeremy Buloch on 28-12-2002 at 14:41

	26-11-2002 17:29									#2
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before i post a lot of units i can think of....are we talking about units (a la civ) or are we talking about cassis (a la SMAC!)

	26-11-2002 17:42									#3
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Regarding the espionage units I must note that the espionage discussion in general is the key for that, so no conlusions about that yet. Those are "maybe" units.

DBTS,

terrestial units (~ Civ).

	26-11-2002 17:54									#4
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no designshop?

ok here we go:

transport helicopter
(can transport one infantry unit X tiles away. cant land on slopes, sea, 'fungus', tile occupied by another player, can take of from carrier)

fighter
(airunit for air-to-air combat [100%], can take of from carrier)

attackplane
(airunit for air-to-air[40%] and air-to-ground[60%] combat, can trake off from carrier)

bomber
(airunit for air-to-ground[100%] combat, cant take off from carrier)

support ship
(supplies ships)

escort ship
(fast, light armored ship to escort carrier, support ships and landers)

landingcraft
(can carry X units over shallow waters)

transport ship
(supplies ships[10%],ground[10%] units, transports X units over all sea tiles)

MORE TO COME A LOT MORE TO COME!

	26-11-2002 18:18									#5
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because this is a tinktank i was to ask to question about bombarding....:

will bombarding only weaken the unit or could it destroy the unit also?

i am for also destroying the unit...because if you do a carpetbombing of an area with on unit in it.....most of the soldiers will die...the rest that is left will not be able to act as one single fighting unit....with ships,tanks and airplanes we most ask ourselves: do they represent one ship or several? these are curcial things that needs to be cleared up...

	26-11-2002 20:00									#6
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I agree with DBTS about bombardment with artillery or air units. The bombardment seen in Civ III was IMO a mistake and we shouldn't do it too. I.e. artillery and bomber units would destroy the unit (like in Civ II) and not just weaken it.

	26-11-2002 21:10									#7
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i would like to suggest a bombardment system like in CTP i liked that one very much

	26-11-2002 23:46									#8
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Early game:

Infantry: Guys with guns. Depend on terrain for most of their defensive skill, with armour playing only a small role.

Rovers: Quads, trikes and bikes. Fast, and reasonably deadly, especially over flat ground. Little armour, and much less ability to use terrain defensively.

Mid game:

Mechanised infantry: Guys with guns in armoured vehicles. Reasonable armour, and able to use terrain quite well. Much faster than infantry, slightly less than the rover.

Armour: Tanks. Powerful weapons, strong armour, pretty fast. Can't use terrain very well.

Late game: I have no preferences for this period.

I'd suggest that mechanical units can be easily destroyed by bombardment, but infantry should be more difficult.

	27-11-2002 02:41									#9
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I will leave ground units to you all but here are some naval and air units:

attacksub
(invisible for surface-radar, can only be spotted by X type units, can only attack naval units[100%])

tacticalsub
(invisible for surface-radar, can only be spotted by Xtype units, can only attack naval units[30%], can launch any missile[70%])

commandship
(naval unit that can only be build ones for every 10 other naval units in your military, give a morale + modifier to ships in X tile radius, and sees submarines in the direct area)

transporters
(airunit for transport of tanks[85%], supplies[15%] bases and groundunits, cant land on carrier)

C[lose]A[ir]S[upport] unit
(airunit for support of ground units, air-to-ground attack against units that are not in a base is 150% of normal)

	27-11-2002 07:18									#10
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Yes I agree with You DBTS The artillery bombardment could work like this...


When a artillery unit fires it hits the other unit(s) and kills the majority of them. The survivals would run away back to a nearest city and stuff. But if there are border patrols and so on. The people will be caught and put back in service or they could be let in city. It could bring up a screen asking if they should be let in the territory. THis would only work for certain types of Governments that doesn't allow freedom and they have to have a border. I know this is a bit off topic but I made the thread.

-J.B.-

	28-11-2002 01:12									#11
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Naval surface units:

Early game:

Skimmers: Very lightly armoured boats. Can't travel across oceans, only suitable for rivers and coastal areas. Able to use terrain effectively, only problem is that the sea is generally lacking in terrain. A naval equivalent of infantry.

Hydrofoil: Speedy, oceangoing boat. Not much in the way of weapons, but tougher than the skimmers.

Mid game:

Destroyer: Medium armour, little terrain using ability, plenty of weapons. Fast.

Cruiser: Heavy armour (including a double-hull option), unable to utilise terrain, cramed with weapons. Quite fast.

Late game: I'd expect mostly fast, submersible units by this time. I don't want to see battleships and super-carriers; I don't think a colonial society would be inclined to build such relics.

A radical idea: Scrap transport-type units, and just give every naval unit a carrying capacity. This would discourage cheesy scenarios with unarmed, unsupported transports unloading a ton of units, and would encourage players to build a proper fleet. It would also greatly improve the performance of any AI, and remove tedious 'transport guarding' tasks for the player.

	28-11-2002 19:22									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

about build carriers and battleships i think they would build them because if you havent got the time and resources to build a big enough army to control the entire planet in ones, then you will resort to a ship that can transport you availible army somewhere and deliver enough firepower to destroy the enemy.....


this i way i think colonial powers, ones estabilished, will resort to carriers and battleships so that they can deliver there limited power all over the world..

	28-11-2002 23:22									#13
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What's wrong with using smaller sized ships for power projection? Why build obselete hulks when small ships will do the job just fine? Not to mention that building a battleship/super-carrier fleet would cost the same as several army units. No navy on the world uses battleships, and only the Americans have super-carriers. Demanding the inclusion of battleships is akin to insisting on cavalry units, and any colonial society which managed to acheive an industrial capacity large enough to build 200,000t super-carriers would probably have progressed past the need to use them.

Games where you develop a technology tree have an unfortunate habit of having a linear progression from small units to monster units. StP would do well to avoid this cliche.

	28-11-2002 23:38									#14
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if you colonize a world you will have several spots where people settle only the best places will be settled and only after X years will the entire world be settled....so if you are at war you would need to travel a great distance.....airplanes will not have that range so they need a mobile airfield to operate of....a carrier....if you send 100 little ships that can be lost in a storm or a easy prey for airplanes you will lose a lot.....now i agree if you lose a battleship it is far more devestating...but they can be protected by a carrier and can bombard the coastline before the marines land....if you look at this for in the game bombardment has to work in the right way to allow battleships.........but just because we on earth dont use them doesnt mean new planets wont....i think they would use them much faster

	29-11-2002 00:44									#15
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quote: if you colonize a world you will have several spots where people settle only the best places will be settled and only after X years will the entire world be settled....so if you are at war you would need to travel a great distance.....airplanes will not have that range so they need a mobile airfield to operate of....a carrier

There is no reason for conflict if there are huge distances between factions. Anyway, I don't have problem with small-sized carriers, it's super-carriers which I think are a poor idea for the game.

quote: if you send 100 little ships that can be lost in a storm or a easy prey for airplanes you will lose a lot

I don't mean 100 little ships, I mean six normal sized ships. Battleships are sitting ducks for aircraft, that's one reason that they are not used.

quote: but they can be protected by a carrier and can bombard the coastline before the marines land

Why can't cruisers and destroyers bombard the coastline? Seeing as how mostly missiles would be used, enormous battleship guns are unnecessary. And a carrier can protect smaller ships as well.

	29-11-2002 01:01									#16
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quote: There is no reason for conflict if there are huge distances between factions. Anyway, I don't have problem with small-sized carriers, it's super-carriers which I think are a poor idea for the game.

there will always be conflict between humans...and here because of the (limited) best colonization places...

for the rest i agree that battleships are a bit off...but i think a ship that could perform the task of a carrier and transport of units...atleast a normal carrier is very likely to find his way in the battlefields of the future......thinking of it a multi-task ship operating almost entirely alone is very feaseble......think of a ship that can transport troops and airplanes to and from the battlefield ....

	29-11-2002 01:33									#17
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I think multitasking units will be very important in a colonial society, since resources and crew will be scarce.
for example the idea of all sea units having transport capability is a very good example of such integration, or maybe attack rovers with artillery capability etc

	29-11-2002 18:38									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The common mistake in much of unit trees is "bigger is better". So, light units are developed 1st, then medium, and later game superprize - Enormous.
Instead, look at modern navi. They are't dramaticaly big (excluding carriers), or heavy armoured. Modern inf is still basicaly "man on feet" while fighting. Modern interceptors are't dramaticaly bigger than WW2 interceptors (while other characteristics, including, price is _much_ higher).
Army of fleet is integral living creature, so every peice must be in right place, from smallest man to collosus carrier. End every epoch army must fit this criterion, otherwise it'll be consumed of less unbalanced enemy.
So, every tech stage units must create integral, stable, flawless all-purpose union. Otherwise, late game will surely degenerate to "who have more Arm Nubian" munchkinfest.

	30-11-2002 07:39									#19
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We could have a Cargo Plane. Where the plane would take off with troops or tanks and stuff like that. It would not hold any weapons unless we decide to put some on. It would take the roll like a C-130.
-J.B.-

	30-11-2002 19:09									#20
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Late game naval ideas:

Carrier sub: A large submarine that can be equipped with strike subs, aircraft, helicopters or missiles, depending on what you fit to it. Terrain-using: poor.

Predator sub: A small/medium sized sub with a wide array of possible roles, including carrier sub killing, anti-aircraft duty, coastal attack and stealthy observation. Very fast. Terrain-using: good

Strike sub: A small sub which is treated like an underwater aircraft. Doesn't have the range of an aircraft, and can only travel through water, but is still deadly to shipping and coastal installations. Terrain-using: medium.

Flying sub: This is a machine that can swim through water and fly through the air. It's launched from a base or carrier. It can dodge air defences by going underwater, and sea defences by flying. Terrain using: medium.

	03-12-2002 15:40									#21
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Bubble sub: create gaseous bubble where it can move quickly almost like airplane. Disadvantege: generates like mad, giving away its position en-route.

	03-12-2002 16:03									#22
	Remove this text

Targon -
I've read about that kind of torpedo that has been developed. Clever idea.

Are these forgotten:

Scout blimp : early scouting aircraft. Slow, increased sighting radius...

Burrowing unit: can move underground. can bypass city defences, ignores zoc's...

"spider-scout": fast (all terrain as flat), has multiple attacs (?)...

	03-12-2002 16:33									#23
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I still wondering why it's common idea that units sizes must grow with tech levels... Americans now develop new robotic tank, much smaller than manned counterpart, this stuff is ~1.5 m high. Low profile, hard to spot, even harder to hit.

Burrowing unit and ZOC's: this stuff may even exist now, but it's dramaticaly slow and is't hard to detect. Deep penetration bombs may ruin this unit's day... Still nice idea.... how this stuff is supposed to be drawn... on surface, borrowing or already under earth?

	03-12-2002 16:52									#24
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Well, it could be invisible to all other players...

	03-12-2002 17:37									#25
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You mean that an invisible design would be good too?

	03-12-2002 18:40									#26
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Well, actually not invisible. Only hidden. Atleast the ownership of the unit would be hidden, and stopping it would be difficult (thus ignoring zoc's).

targon -
on this days technology it would be slow indeed, but I can't see into the future. We don't know what new technologies we find.
We could discover some kind of mystical crystal, and when attached to a gem laser, it could produce unbelievable results. It could turn the stone in to quantum matter for a certain amount of time, and during this time it would become penetrable - like gas.

When this laser is mounted into a vehicle, it can go through solid rock - or so it would seem. The rock wouldn't be rock during the time the vehicle passes through it, but after short period it would turn back to rock.

This would also result a drawback to the units abilities. It couldn't be stationed underground. If you fortify/sentry/'skip turn' with it, it automatically rises to the surface.

And the graphics with this unit: I really don't know. I think that only 'on surface' mode.

	06-12-2002 13:00									#27
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OK, here are some really wierd ideas about borrower:
1. Sonic disruptor. As much of earth is in crystalline state, it's therreticaly possible do break it via sonic resonase.
2. Nanites eating rock.
3. It's thereticly possible to compress fermion (electron, for expample) beam to threshold of so-called "fermi liquid". This stuff is extremly thin, fast, relatively dense and unstoppable. Is't especialy great weapon, but still may prove excellent rock cutter.
4. Simply dissolve earth via something really warm indeed, fusion "torch" fo example.
So borrowers are't completely dead, and even do't stink like dead They are simply unborn. I have some ideas how this stuff may be drawn; try to do so this weekend.

BTW, someone knows how future aircraft may look like? I tried some ideas, but they looked too odd or too non-futuristic.

	07-12-2002 01:50									#28
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i think the future lays in hover-aircrafts.....they are just like airplanes but:
a: they can hover on the spot
b: they can make almost 180 turns and stuff....

just think of an hovercraft but then as an aircraft

	07-12-2002 02:14									#29
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Are you refering to a UFO/flying disc?

	08-12-2002 11:11									#30
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"Given the astronomical number of possible planets in the galaxy, a Type II civilization may try a more realistic approach than conventional rockets and use nano technology to build tiny, self-replicating robot probes which can proliferate through the galaxy in much the same way that a microscopic virus can self-replicate and colonize a human body within a week. Such a civilization might send tiny robot von Neumann probes to distant moons, where they will create large factories to reproduce millions of copies of themselves. Such a von Neumann probe need only be the size of bread-box, using sophisticated nano technology to make atomic-sized circuitry and computers. Then these copies take off to land on other distant moons and start the process all over again. Such probes may then wait on distant moons, waiting for a primitive Type 0 civilization to mature into a Type I civilization, which would then be interesting to them. (There is the small but distinct possibility that one such probe landed on our own moon billions of years ago by a passing space-faring civilization. This, in fact, is the basis of the movie 2001, perhaps the most realistic portrayal of contact with extra-terrrestrial intelligence.)"

"A Von Neumann probe is a robot designed to reach distant star systems and create factories which will reproduce copies themselves by the thousands. A dead moon rather than a planet makes the ideal destination for Von Neumann probes, since they can easily land and take off from these moons, and also because these moons have no erosion. These probes would live off the land, using naturally occurring deposits of iron, nickel, etc. to create the raw ingredients to build a robot factory. They would create thousands of copies of themselves, which would then scatter and search for other star systems.

Similar to a virus colonizing a body many times its size, eventually there would be a sphere of trillions of Von Neumann probes expanding in all directions, increasing at a fraction of the speed of light. In this fashion, even a galaxy 100,000 light years across may be completely analyzed within, say, a half million years.

If a Von Neumann probe only finds evidence of primitive life (such as an unstable, savage Type 0 civilization) they might simply lie dormant on the moon, silently waiting for the Type 0 civilization to evolve into a stable Type I civilization. After waiting quietly for several millennia, they may be activated when the emerging Type I civilization is advanced enough to set up a lunar colony. Physicist Paul Davies of the University of Adelaide has even raised the possibility of a Von Neumann probe resting on our own moon, left over from a previous visitation in our system aeons ago.

(If this sounds a bit familiar, that's because it was the basis of the film, 2001. Originally, Stanley Kubrick began the film with a series of scientists explaining how probes like these would be the most efficient method of exploring outer space. Unfortunately, at the last minute, Kubrick cut the opening segment from his film, and these monoliths became almost mystical entities)"


So therefore these could might be used as Surveillance devices. For mapping out the globe and keeping the geographical borders etc. up to date. It could see units in citys as well as improvements that the other faction(s) are building. It could be a great spy tool.
-J.B.-