25-11-2002 12:34									#1
	Making Guerillas Useful Get a bigger avatar today!

That, of course, assumes you found them not to be useful to begin with. As for myself, I saw in them the potential to be a good unit, but one that had not been unleashed as of yet.

Taking in to the editor, I decided that the in-game guerillas should function more like real-life guerillas. So, what do guerillas do in the real world? They are hit-and-run units, sneaking through jungles and hills, staying one step ahead of their more powerful foes.

Thanks to the new PTW editor, we can set units to ignore the move cost of certain terrain. So, with a few clicks, my guerillas now ignore jungle, mountains, and hills. Now, that doesn't do much good with just a move of 1, so we bump that up to 2.

Viola! Suddenly, a mediocre unit takes on whole new dimensions! Now the guerillas can swarm in quickly from unexpected directions, tearing up roads and picking away at slower moving units. The 2 move allows them a retreat option, so hit-and-runs are much more viable. And, to top it off, they're cheap. They probably won't win you any wars, but they sure can tear it up behind enemy lines!

Anyone else made any modifications to them worth sharing?

	25-11-2002 12:54									#2
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You may be missing the most useful feature of Guerrillas.

They are the culmination of the new Warrior chain.

No longer are swordsmen a "dead-end" unit.

Warriors(1/1)-Swordsmen(3/2)-Med.Inf(4/2)-Guerrilla(6/6) IIRC.

If you're a Horseman purist, this doesn't really affect you.
If you're a Swordsman rusher, this is huge.

	25-11-2002 14:36									#3
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Of course this change makes Cavalty usuless.
Guerrila are much better.

P.S.
Just remeber that Guerrilas should be balanced before you get Tanks.

	25-11-2002 20:01									#4
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I theink they should have a defense bonus in mountains, jungle and forest. Cheap as in 80 points (the cost of Riflemen) is the right price I think, they should be cheap, a small country should be able to field a healthy supply of em.

Invisiblity is also a good feature for em, so you have to search for em to find them, forces the powerfull nation to have to deploy their infantry forces and cover territory.

	25-11-2002 22:43									#5
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Zargonx, you forgot "ignore movement cost of Forest" in your post. Otherwise, I have done the same thing, including 2MP (no blitz).

In a defensive situation, they are quite valuable. What with enemy bombers & battleships destroying my communications and infrastructure, my "partisans" in conjunction with artillery are making it tough on enemy tanks who come unescorted (6 attack, 4 HP vs. 8 defense, 1 HP). While I won't win this game, this conflict has been most entertaining!

	26-11-2002 00:16									#6
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Of course this change makes Cavalty usuless. Guerrila are much better. P.S. Just remeber that Guerrilas should be balanced before you get Tanks.

It doesn't make cavalry useless at all. Cavalry come earlier than Guerrilas (much earlier in some strategies), and they're faster over open terrain, like say most of your enemy's empire. Guerrilas are only more useful in enclosed terrain, like rooting out those last few jungle cities to wipe the enemy civ off the planet

	26-11-2002 00:34									#7
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I think the Guerrilas should have the following:

ADM : 662 + all terraign as roads

Hidden Nationality
Invisibile
Detect Invisible units

Everyone will need to protect their workers.

	26-11-2002 00:43									#8
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I already posted this ten thousand times in various threads:

ADM: 0.4.1

All terrain as roads
Hidden nationality

Won't capture workers/ conquer cities, but could cause serious problems by pillaging WITHOUT a declaration of war...

	26-11-2002 02:44									#9
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I think Guerrillas should be 6/6/1 with the same cost of infantry but w/o rubber req.

wait... thats how the game it is!

	26-11-2002 09:00									#10
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You know, a better way to go with swordsmen would be to have them uprgrade to riflemen and then use the guerilla as a stand alone unit. Or how about this, how about cavalry uprgading to Guerilla? If you're going to give the guerilla better movement it makes sense.

	26-11-2002 18:57									#11
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Che_Guavaras aren't about rapid mobility, they're about hit and run- strike and dissapear, doesn't mean they get to cover territory like cavalry can. I don't think we should get carried away with this whole Guerilla/Cavalry equivalencing- the two have nothing to do with eachover.

Course, you don't need my permission to do what you want, I'm just sayin is all.

	27-11-2002 05:43									#12
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I think we need to decide what the Guerilla is being modeled after. Is it an elite commando? It is a poor stand in for Infantry?

I intepret the Guerilla as a VC type unit. If that is the case, it should be cheap, available without resources, and unable to last in a stand up fight.

No visible nationality: would be nice because it would simulate the difficulties faced by the US in identifying the enemy in Nam. However, on the large scale, it would make them more like covert ops, which Guerillas are not. So, I would say 'no' to this option.

Extra movement: No. Guerillas lack the massive supply trains of large units, but they also lack any mobilized transport, which even leg infantry can sometimes get.

Move with Roads: Yes. Similar to the old Partisan unit. This allows them to swiftly move around tough terrain that would slow large units. This make them faster in rough terrain than tanks, but slower on roads, as is appropriate.

ADM: This is the tough part. They should be weaker on the attack than Infantry, and perhaps even weaker than Riflemen. This would simulate their poor equipment and supply. I would say attack of no more than 5. Defense is very tough. They should be strong when dug in rough terrain, but still not able to slow a large enemy unit. Defense no more than 6.

The Guerilla should be a good unit for poor nations to deploy to harass stonger, more advanced enemies. It should not be something that an advanced nation produces. Covert Ops / Special Forces units are too small to be simulated outside of the Espionage options.

	27-11-2002 07:37									#13
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quote: [SIZE=1] ADM: This is the tough part. They should be weaker on the attack than Infantry, and perhaps even weaker than Riflemen. This would simulate their poor equipment and supply. I would say attack of no more than 5. Defense is very tough. They should be strong when dug in rough terrain, but still not able to slow a large enemy unit. Defense no more than 6.

I disagree with them having attack less then 6. The success of guerillas in the world, is due to the enemy being surprised and being in fear of being surprised. Psychological warfare is the key.

	27-11-2002 07:41									#14
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The only change I'd make to Guerilla's would be to make their upgrade costs from Longbowmen and Med. Infantry much cheaper. Say, 20 gold, as opposed to the ridiculous 100 gold they cost now.

	27-11-2002 07:42									#15
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Perhaps they could also ignore the defensive bonus' of the units they're attacking given to them by terrain.

	27-11-2002 08:08									#16
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I would givet eh Guerilla "use all terrain as roads," and "secret nationality" flags. Stats would be 3/6/2 with a very cheap production cost. The free use of terrain is a guerilla'sbread and butter. The no nationality flag would let you support an ally clandestinly, which is a concept missing from the game right now (I do this with the Stealth Bomber to, so that it actually has a use in the game). Guerilla's are by nature defensive units, and should have stats to reflect thsi. Nore should they more defensive than infantry, or there would be no use for infantry.

	28-11-2002 17:40									#17
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I agree with kgookrids points, except (playing Civ3) i have made Guerilla units that Use-All-Terrain_as-roads, to simulate their light-mobility, their knowledge of local territory, they carry little food and ammo coz they have dumps scattered around the area and the support of local villagers, but this only apoplies in their own country. As an invasion force operating in foreign territory, they only move one square per turn, and are very weak to boot (6.6.1 or something)

Also experimenting with letting them bombard adjoining squares, to represent sabotage, booby traps etc, bombard damage is very light, canon-strenth, and experimenting with Zone-of-control (they'll definately keep ZOC). Of course they are invisible too.

	28-11-2002 19:49									#18
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Use-All-Terrain_as-roads WORKS at enemy territory.

Otherwise Explorers and Conquistadors would be useless.

	29-11-2002 17:30									#19
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Really? damn, what is the difference then between ATAR and just giving a unit 3 moves per turn then, seems to me to be a duplication of function. I think it would have worked much better if ATAR only worked in friendly squares, ideal for Gerurillas for the reasons I stated abovc.

	29-11-2002 22:17									#20
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Really? damn, what is the difference then between ATAR and just giving a unit 3 moves per turn then, seems to me to be a duplication of function.

Something with 3 movement will only move one square through mountains or jungle, and only two through hills or forest. An ATAR unit will move 3 squares through anything. Also, a unit with 3 movement will retreat from combat, but a 1 movement ATAR unit will not. They're completely different things.

	30-11-2002 00:08									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

It would probably make sense giving guerillas 2 moves rather than all terrain as roads though - that way they could 'retreat into the hills' after failed combats. Just give them the ability to ignore terrain movement penalties.

	30-11-2002 00:27									#22
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quote: 'no' to this option. Extra movement: No. Guerillas lack the massive supply trains of large units, but they also lack any mobilized transport, which even leg infantry can sometimes get. ADM: This is the tough part. They should be weaker on the attack than Infantry, and perhaps even weaker than Riflemen. This would simulate their poor equipment and supply. I would say attack of no more than 5. Defense is very tough. They should be strong when dug in rough terrain, but still not able to slow a large enemy unit. Defense no more than 6. The Guerilla should be a good unit for poor nations to deploy to harass stonger, more advanced enemies. It should not be something that an advanced nation produces. Covert Ops / Special Forces units are too small to be simulated outside of the Espionage options.

I agree Guerilla's should not be as strong as regular Army troops or defend as well.