09-12-2002 11:08									#61
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I think that the President should keep playing until he needs further orders, and if orders are not recieved in 24 hours, then the Pres does what he feels necessary

	09-12-2002 15:43									#62
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Well there's always the possibilty that a minster gives orders that span over an unlimited number of turns (e.g. diplomacy).
Without this article a pres could just play on as long he'd like - not caring about any orders from ministers. In my opinion, if he's missing orders for a whole turn, then the minister clearly didn't get the chance to evaluate the situation and so the pres has to stop. It's after all a democracy and not a dictatorship with puppet ministers!
Besides, a minister is not supposed to just dissappear without notice and without delegates. If he does - get away with him. So maybe we change 1.(f) from "has the right to choose" to "is obliged to choose". What do you think?

	09-12-2002 17:48									#63
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2.I.b Instaed of is "encouraged" i think "may or may not" is better but not that much of change here

2.I.d- Just being picky. Remember to state that the president has to follow the orders of the Court, minster and Delegates "if these orders are in accordance with the officer jurisdiction" the way it is written looks like the President will follow evry order.
And this article is too big. you can split it in two: One about receiveng orders and another one about deciding on its own.
Although i think this second part gives the President absolute powers, dont you?

	09-12-2002 19:20									#64
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Frankly, no. There's a clear limitation to those powers and a need to justify their use by the pres. H Towers proposal would be doing that!
May or may not is saying nothing - encourage means that's what we'd like to see and I put it that way because that's what people said in the voting.
What do you think about the changes to the diplo-minister? I just think he'd have to poll too many times.

	09-12-2002 21:36									#65
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quote: Originally posted by redbull I think that the President should keep playing until he needs further orders, and if orders are not recieved in 24 hours, then the Pres does what he feels necessary

24 hours is not enough, the minister's need to be able to post polls, formulate reports, etc, etc. I think five days minimum should be the time allowed ministers to gather info and then report.


i've been thinking about under what conditions the president can play after i posted yesterday, and i've changed my mind, considering how many different and important things each minister does, i think that we should wait for a report from the ministers and not burden the president, especially since this is a democracy afterall, also it would make him more vulnerable to impeachment if he went it alone

	09-12-2002 22:30									#66
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quote: Now I don't like the need for polls in two cases in the ministry for diplomacy, trade and science because I think that minister can almost do nothing at all on his own. I'd scrap the polling requirement for gifts and for science. Gifts without getting anything back could be made with the approval of the pres, exchanges should be in power of the minister. Science will certainly always be discussed but no need to poll every decision in research - we don't poll the slider either which is much more important. So my proposal here: IV (b) The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science can only propose a gift to another civilization or give in to a demand of tribute with the approval of the president. (d) The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science controls research.

Nobody got any opinion about this? Because if not the less restrictive version is surely easier to handle. I think it'd be actually more democratic since poll turnout can be rather low...

And yes H Tower I think the pres will need that time to collect the orders and he just shouldn't play without orders from a minister.

	10-12-2002 03:10									#67
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Remove the need to the minister in case of gifts other then gold spending (needs to talk with the Pres), weapons reduce (needs to talk with the MoD), and city giving (needs to talk with the MoDA).
What do you think?

	10-12-2002 03:14									#68
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Ok, weapons and city giving I forgot, but I'm not really sure I understand the first part of your post. So you're ok with only having to talk with the pres for money, if it's just a gift without reward (like the map) he can do it on his own?? Then why did you put the poll in the article in the first time?

	10-12-2002 03:40									#69
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I mean the MoSDT can only spend money if the Pres aproves. Since the Pres is incharge of the treasury according to the section 2-I.g of this article.

quote: (g) The President has the power over the money reserve. Therefore every money spending decision must have the approval of the President in order to be act.

	10-12-2002 03:49									#70
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you're right, but that's in IV.a)

	10-12-2002 03:52									#71
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quote: Then why did you put the poll in the article in the first time?

I was too lazy to rite every detail of weapon reduce, city giving, gold and other i could had forgoten

Seriously, I just like polls! They keep the non-ministers citizens informed, are democratic and i like that. If i could i would obligate a poll for every action but i cant without ruin the game. So i added poll in all the action that wasnt going to ruin the game because they dont happen too often.

I want a game to all 30 citizen and not just to the 5 ministers.

quote: you're right, but that's in IV.a)

I know. I was just remembering the proposals that would affect other ministers

	10-12-2002 04:07									#72
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Article: The Executive Branch


1. General Contents

(a) The members of the Executive Branch are called ministers and the positions in the Exective Branch are called ministerial offices or executive offices.
(b) Any citizen become a candidate for an executive office by expressing his desire to in the thread started by the Court as described in Article IV.
(c) An elected minister is charged with the duties explained in this Chapter 2 of this article until the end of the term for which the minister was elected.
(e)The terms for all elected offices last four weeks (28 days). All ministers will remain in office for this period unless they resign or are impeached before the end of it.
(f) If a minister will be unable to perform its duties for some part of the term, this minister is obliged to choose a willing citizen as delegate, who will act on his behalf, until further notice from the minister or the end of the position term, whichever is the sooner. This delegate will still be subordinated to the citizen being replaced. A minister can be delegate of a fellow minister (This one just came up my mind, e.g. Pres not able to play, let a minister do it, not just a citizen)
(g) A minister who expects to have to appoint a delegate for a significant proportion of the term is encouraged to resign.
(h) Every in-game action made or recommended to the President by a minister must be posted to the forum, no matter how insignificant it is.
(i) All resolutions passed by the citizens through a resolution poll declared valid by the Court will be obeyed by all ministers and will overrule all decisions made by ministers in order to make its content part of the game.


2. Government Positions

I. The President
(a) The President shall physically play the game on a regular and scheduled basis whenever possible and post the save and a complete report of the game events to the forum.
(b)The President is encouraged to use turnchats, turnthreads, or any other similar method while playing the game.
(c) The President must follow the instructions of the Court, the Ministers and their delegates while playing the game and doesn't hold any veto powers unless specifically named in the constitution. If an instruction is clearly erroneous, or by changed circumstances made impossible or harmful the President may decide in the best interest of the game.
(d) In case of missing orders for a whole turn from a minister and all his delegates the President may not play on.
(e) The President is in charge of naming all new cities of the empire regardless of how the cities were created or assimilated. A name has to be evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II) before a city is named.
(f) The President is in charge of all the Empire settings and sliders, including Rations, Workday, Wages, Public Works rate and Science rate.
(g) The President has the power over the money reserve. Therefore every money spending decision must have the approval of the President in order to be act.

II. The Minister of Domestic Affairs
(a) The Minister of Domestic Affairs is responsible for managing all cities. Including their distribution of specialist citizens and production queues, rushed production requests and disbanding of cities.
(b) The Minister of Domestic Affairs can only disband a city after this action be evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II).
(c) The action of Rush buy build queue items can only be perfomed with the President's approval.
(d) The Minister of Domestic Affairs is ultimately responsible for settlers, choosing site for new cities and moving these units to this site.

III. The Minister of Infrastruture
(a) The Minister of Infrastructure is ultimately responsible for the placement of tile improvements, choosing the best tile and the best improvement, with the current reserve of public workers.

IV. The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science
(a) The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science is responsible for gifts, requests, exchanges and agreements with other nations. Any paying of gold has to be approved by the President.
(b) The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science can only propose a gift to another civilization or give in to a demand of tribute with the approval of the president. Exchanges of cities need the approval of the Minister of Domestic affairs. Disarmement treaties need the approval of the Minister of Defence.
(c) The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science has the control over all unconventional units, except settlers. Spending gold with the unconventional units orders has to be approved by President. Any action which would result in a declaration of war has to be evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II).
(d) The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science controls all internal and foreign trade.
(e) The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science controls research.

V. The Minister of Defense
(a) The Minister of Defense controls all units and their orders including the disband order, except settlers and all other unconventional units.
(b)Any action which would result in a declaration of war has to be evaluated by the citizens through an Official Poll (article III, section 3-II).
(c) The Minister of Defense shall name all armies that he thinks is necessary to make discussions easier.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for the concern Pedrunn raised about the "jurisdiction" - I think that's clear since we specifically name all the rights of each minister.

Last edited by mapfi on 10-12-2002 at 04:34

	10-12-2002 04:11									#73
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And yes Pedrunn, this shouldn't be the game of 5 ministers, but with fixing the need to poll this is just getting to strict in my opinion. There's nothing that keeps ministers from polling nevertheless or citizens from starting a poll about sth. they care about. However, as MoSDT I'd e.g. give away a 100 gold as a gift when I meet a new civ, and if necessary keep giving gifts to keep them happy - now if I'd have to poll for that every time we'd end up with lots of polls. There needs to be some check, but there is - the pres and the people's polling rights.

	10-12-2002 04:21									#74
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Remove the part in IV.a about the Pres it is redunctant with part IV.b

And i dont like the way the IV.b is written.

quote: As for the concern Pedrunn raised about the "jurisdiction" - I think that's clear since we specifically name all the rights of each minister.

	10-12-2002 04:28									#75
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IVa)any money exchange
IVb)gift and tributes, which can be money or map or city or research...
- so it's not the same

So how would you write IVb? Do you mean you don't like the language or the implifications?

	10-12-2002 04:59									#76
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"The Minister of Diplomacy, Trade and Science can only propose to another civilization the offering of gold with the approval of the president, the offering of cities with the approval of the Minister of Domestic affairs and the offering of disarmement treaties with the approval of the Minister of Defense."

I dont think he needs aproval for Maps, start war, pollution(who should deal with pollution? The MoDA?) or research. He can do n his own, can he?

He should be the major strategist to choose the friend and the enemies. While the MoD has to be the major strategist to kill the enemies chosen by the MoSDT

Last edited by Pedrunn on 10-12-2002 at 05:06

	10-12-2002 16:11									#77
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Aha, I just thought the giving away of maps etc. as a freebie was too serious to let him do it on his own - but not really workable with polling about it every time - that's why I put the pres in. Don't you think that'd be better?
As for polution, if we want to mention it - then MoDA.

	10-12-2002 21:21									#78
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is giving maps away serious? i've never played CtP2, but in civ2 it always seemed as if teh AI already knew the whole map. your saying that its different for CtP2?

	10-12-2002 22:51									#79
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the AI certainly doesn't know the map ahead - there's no cheat there - it'll try to discover everything and therefore send units into your lands. Now especially with the Frenzy AI that we've got in the mod we're playing it's going to walk directly towards our cities. If it doesn't know the surroundings it'll be hard to find the best way. (I think it'll still know the city's place - that's in the frenzy script) It also certainly uses it's knowledge of the map for settling, so if we discover good spots we might keep it secret until it's settled... if we have the military strength.
Since we'll be playing this on impossible it'll be more then hard enough!

	11-12-2002 08:06									#80
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True.

The AI doesnt make strategies based on targets in unexplored lands according to the goal.txt.

Therefore he will try to dicover the explored land. Of course the AI codes gives the AI cheating by telling him the best target to attack even if in unexplored land.