26-11-2002 03:24									#1
	Espionage Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I know there have been a couple ideas and suggestions throughout many of these threads, but what are your ideas on espionage? In SMAC I really enjoyed this part of the game and liked the way they went about it, but for StP I'd like to see it more complicated and detailed.

I think there should be probe team unit as in AC but perhaps a couple different types with various methods of upgradeability.

An intelligence agency type base facility would be cool (can't remember if SMAC had one.) that's similar to the CIA, Mossad, KGB, or whatever you want to call it. It could serve as a base for operations and make your field agents have a higher chance of sucess.

A counter-intelligence agency would also be cool. To help detect other faction's spies and whatnot. Perhaps these two things (CIA type facility, and counter-intelligence facility) could be combined into a secret project.)

I think some related techs would be interesting too; both to serve your agents in the field as well as to help defend against other faction's.

-Advanced Cryptography (maybe with the advent of Oribital Spaceflight or equivalent tech would come the ability to develop cryptographic pads seeded with satellite noise or something. Pretty random, impossible to break, would make your bases impervious to hackers or whatever.)

-Quantum Supercomputers (A pretty high up tech as well. Helps in cracking other faction's encryption systems and increases chance of successful espionage.)

Other factors that affect the sucess of an operation would include what the morale of the targeted base is, as well as how happy people are with the current form of government. (You might get the ability to plant an agent into the government with your sucess dependent upon the base's and faction's morale, happiness, etc and also dependent on how high-up in the government beauracracy the agent will be. Low-level informers would be easy to do while sucess would diminish the higher up they get.)

Building on that idea comes the factor of time. As the years pass your low level spy/government informer might rise through the ranks thus being able to feed you more detailed information.

Okay, that's enough from me right now. I have more ideas to post later.

	26-11-2002 03:50									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

I don't know if seperate espionage units, like probes area good idea, it gets tedious to manage all those units, especially if there are going to be 10+ factions or something.

I would propose a pool of spies, like the caravan pool in CtP.
You can train spies in your cities, when finished they are added to your pool of spies, each spy can have different statistics, one may be good at stealth, another may be good at bombing.
When you want to order an espionage mission, you select a spy from your pool, choose what city or faction to target, and what the mission will be. The spy becomes unavailable for x days, x depending on the mission and the distance of the city/faction. The price of the mission could then depend on the number of days, and the type of mission.

If your spies are detected or not depends on your faction stealth modifiers, and your spies stealth rating. Same goes for succes, although succes is mostly determined by the spy's experience and the type of mission. Faction modifiers can be social engineering bonues/penalties, but also wonder bonusses.

	26-11-2002 06:47									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yes I like Lemmy's Idea. We could have a pool for the units. It would be less complicated to implement. I think we are trying to make this game too complicated. I for one have done that many times.
-J.B.-

	26-11-2002 08:59									#4
	Suffering from ads?

I think the unit pool is a great idea. I mean, it doesn't really interfere with any of my ideas. They'll still be units per se, but just handled differently. And if it's easier, by all means. Also, I'm not really trying to make it more complicated than necessary as I agree with the sentiment that that is what a lot of people (myself included I suppose) inadvertently do. I just wanted to see a deeper and more intricate espionage system as that was an aspect of the game I really enjoyed in SMAC. Keep coming with suggestions; I'm interested.

	26-11-2002 13:31									#5
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one other probelm to me is if we are going to use the poolsystem (that is really handy) how are we going to 'bribe' units in the field?

	26-11-2002 14:16									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I like Disparat's suggestion too. And the idea of a spy pool seems fine to me as it will mean that you don't have to move actual spy units.

About the problem DBTS mentioned...

My suggestion is that we exclude bribing of units in field as it's maybe still abit unrealistic as during a war as I doubt you try to bribe with cash your enemy's units in the trenches or has history taught us that this is usual? IMO nope. Even if it's peace or cease fire, I wouldn't see it as too realistic seeing someone going out there and handling out cheques so that the units would join the enemy rasnks. This proposal sounds abit stubborn, but I couldn't come up with any other solution. How could this be compensated? Propaganda and patriotism (if the enemy unit is from a base that has been previously under friendly control) are the solutions I'm thinking of as that's something that has been utilised in the real world. This would also mean that propaganda and patriotism would make espionage a strong ace in the diplomacy concept, plus we can avoid the need of separate spies.

Of course this wouldn't be something seen before and it sounds like it wouldn't work too good, but I think we should give it a try. Thoughts?

	26-11-2002 16:16									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

My idea is to have both counter-espionage like Disparat suggested and 007's actions like SMAC.
Any base produce Netwatchers (PROBE talents) with a certain % of total population (depend on PROBE value). This talents will protect the base against the espionage and enemy's probe missions. The player can produce Probe units, draining a certain quantity of Netwatcher from the group and train it (maybe using Probe-dedicated facilities).
Probe units can

1. Found Embassy in a non-enemy base (No Vendetta), asking the permission of base owner. Embassy will give all the informations on the base and random informations on the other bases. Infiltration and Propaganda will be more simple. NOTE: after founded an Embassy, the unit cannot move (except if you decide to Close the Embassy). Refusing the permission to open an Embassy won't give malus, but other Leaders can think that you hide something...
   
2. Infiltrate a base the unit will try to enter the base confused among workers. Same bonus as an Embassy, but there are chance to be discovered. Base Infiltration will irritate any Leaders. Iron Curtain Ordinance will make infiltation more difficult.
   

	26-11-2002 17:28									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

K1 and k2 are fixed numbers?

	26-11-2002 18:33									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Forgot to add :
k1 is "mission" parameter (higher for simple mission, lower for very hard ops)

k2 will be a fixed value.

	27-11-2002 01:44									#10
	Support Apolyton

Some more ideas...

Embassies are good. I think they should make covert ops a bit easier since you have a sort of base right in the guy's backyard. However, in and of themselves they shouldn't be all that useful. Just as a jumping off point for spies. They may also reduce detection of spies you have in the field.

Another idea I just thought of which seems like an excellent addition is being able to eavesdrop on other faction's communications. For instance, if through years of hard work and risk you've managed to plant a very high level informant in another faction's government I think it would be very interesting to be able to receive the transcripts of their conversations.

Of course, this is pretty advantageous info so it should be very hard, and very risky, to get, but I think it would really spice up multiplayer games. (and single player to some extent.) Imagine having a guy (or even a secretary of a guy) right at the top of an enemy (or just slightly irritating) faction. They would come out of meetings or transmissions or whatever and then a couple turns later (not instantaneously) you would receive the transcript of what went on. This has some pretty big implications and I think it would be pretty neat.

That's about it for now, more to come maybe.

	27-11-2002 02:06									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Embassies are good for more then espionage. They could increase peace and give you basic information of another faction.

Question: Is there allready something like a trust-factor? Embassies could increase an AI-faction's trust in you. But hurt it badly if they discover you using it for espionage or war-plotting. A higher trust in you could lead to easier trades, easier alliance, etc. However, a lower trust could complicate peace-talks, trades, etc.

	27-11-2002 02:40									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I was thinking about diplomats and spies, and came to the conclusion that they are actually the same, but in a different field.
Historically diplomats have always spied for their home country (openly and covertly), or supported spies from home. So, estabilishing an embassy could be a spy mission, but without a specific duration. Wether the mission succeeds or not, would depend on your relation with the other faction, and the skill of the diplomat/spy, if it's a succes, the spy will only be available for mission targetted at that faction, with a higher chance of succes maybe. And in the mean time, you will be able to access information of the other faction you normally couldn't know. the accuracy of that information can again depend on the skill of the spy.

Based on this and earlier examples, each spy can have several attributes:
Experience, vital for mission succes, gets higher every time a spy is sent on a mission
Diplomacy, mission succes, and accuracy of embassy info depends on this
Sabotage, for bombing missions, determines the effect and partially succes
Stealth, for steal tech, and not getting caught in general, even if the mission fails.
Charisma, for propaganda effectiveness
Equipment, can increase the effect of the mission, this value can be raised by the player, but will require additional upkeep every turn

	27-11-2002 10:16									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Based on this and earlier examples, each spy can have several attributes: Experience, vital for mission succes, gets higher every time a spy is sent on a mission Diplomacy, mission succes, and accuracy of embassy info depends on this Sabotage, for bombing missions, determines the effect and partially succes Stealth, for steal tech, and not getting caught in general, even if the mission fails. Charisma, for propaganda effectiveness Equipment, can increase the effect of the mission, this value can be raised by the player, but will require additional upkeep every turn

Good ideas. The equipment attribute would also rise as you advance in tech development (= better equipment), but it would require additional funding. The more advanced you are, the more advanced you're in espionage.

	27-11-2002 22:43									#14
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

One thing i didn't take into account now is the unit workshop...

You could have a basic unit, a spy, just like the rover or foil in SMAC, but with standard a rating of 0 in diplomacy, sabotage, stealth and charisma. And then have equipment and abilities that improve certain attributes of a spy, for example a "diplomacy training", or later on a "telepathic implant" to improve your diplomacy rating. And "stealth training" and "cloacking device" later on as equipment/weapon to improve stealth ratings.

About the rising equipment cost, i was thinkning if it stays at 0 all the time, then the cost won't rise if you discover more techs. But with every spy tech you get, a 1 increase of equipment will have a larger impact on effectiveness, but it will also cost more. So at first your max equipment bonus can only be 20, but later on in the game, when equipment becomes more effective, you can get a max bonus of 60, but the upkeep will also be higher, although maybe not 3 times as high.

	30-11-2002 03:14									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Many of these espionage ideas are not very futuristic. Here's one of mine that is: A computer virus "unit"

The player, based on his technology level, can design computer viruses for the probe teams to upload into the enemy systems.

The viruses would have different effects, depending on the players wishes. Here are some examples:

Production scrambler: Production is slowed in the infected base.
Infectious: Spreads to other bases belonging to the faction.
Highly Infectious: Spreads to other bases, including your own!
Stability scrambler: Reduces the effectiveness of happiness boosting facilities.
Subliminal messaging: Increases unrest and the chance of the base defecting.
Defensive scrambler: Reduces the effect of defensive base facilities.
Research scrambler: Damages enemy research effectiveness.

The idea is that you could create viruses with two or three of these traits, for example combining "infectious" with "research scrambler" to cripple enemy research.

Destroying viruses would require using energy or maybe using your own specialists to counteract the virus.

There could also be 'wild' viruses which spring up randomly.

	30-11-2002 07:40									#16
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

hmm, too integrate that idea into my suggestion, you could add a computer attribute to the spies, and a virus workshop, where you can create viruses with spies, by sending them on a create virus mission. The effectiveness of the virus would depend on the skill of the spy who made it.
Then you "send" any of your spies on a mission to infect the faction with a virus of your choice. The succes chance of the mission then depends on the computer skill of the spy.

	30-11-2002 17:39									#17
	Put an end to popups!

I don't really see viruses as being something that should be made by a single spy. After all, soldiers aren't expected to make their own guns and ammunition.

	30-11-2002 18:53									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: I don't really see viruses as being something that should be made by a single spy.

I suppose they could be made by more then one spy, the computer skill used to determine the effectiveness of the virus, should then be based some sort of total of the computer skills of all the spies involved. I don't think it should be the absolute total, but have some sort of diminishing returns, for example the first spy counts for 100%, the next for 90%, the next for 81%, eg. decrease the effectiveness by 10% for the next spy.
For example:
4 spies are send on a mission.
Their skills are 70, 40, 50 and 80. The avg of that is 60.
The total skill for the mission would then be 60+60*0.9+60*0.81+60*0.729=206.
However stealth should decrease if more spies are send, more spies are easier detected. Then again, an "infect with virus" mission can always be undetectable.

quote: After all, soldiers aren't expected to make their own guns and ammunition.

Well, given the loose parts, they do have to know how to assemble it i think. So if a spy is given a computer and some software, he should be able to program a virus, or at least only those spies with a certain computer skill.

	30-11-2002 22:53									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think the virus idea is good, but Lemmy's latest suggestion seems a bit complicated. I think your first one is better. The success of the virus would depend largely on the individual spy's computer ability. I agree that the spies don't make the viruses themselves so just separate the virus workshop from the spy implementation. That's pretty simple. Maybe a virus could be something developed by a base with the number of turns it takes to completion dependent upon its complexity. After it's finished, put it in a pool of available viruses and have a spy put it in.

I haven't seen any responses to my proposal on planting an informer in the government to listen in on conversations. Do you think it's a bad idea or what? I'm interested in what you think.

	01-12-2002 17:31									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: I haven't seen any responses to my proposal on planting an informer in the government to listen in on conversations. Do you think it's a bad idea or what? I'm interested in what you think.

Good idea, had nothing bad to say about it so i didn't bother to say anything at all

While with the multiple spies it may be difficult to understand the formulas at once, but when playing the game, you'll just see the ratings change when you add a new spy for the mission.