26-11-2002 06:08									#1
	Ooh, I am so P****ed at Combat System Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What is with this combat system in CIV3!! Here I am playing the Egyptians on a huge map at regeant level and am making reasonable progress. Around 1000 AD I make contact with the French and ole Joan. I am on a large archipelago land mass with a penisula south of me, where I meet up with the Frenchies. I built a few small cities on this peninsula to prevent them from creeping up towards my area. However, the are still significantly bigger than my Civ is.

I make nice with them and try to exchange techs, etc and just get along. She stays polite throughout this relationship witjh no disputes. Well after about 30 turns or so, Joan comes to say she wants some money and territory map or else! So I say, take a flying leap. She then declares war!

I send all my available swordsman, war chariots, orseman and a couple of fortified spearman to defend my territory to await her onslaught. I had a mix of about 20 units, both veterans and regulars to either hold the position or take her closest city on the border and then sue for peace. She sends a about 10 swordman, also a mixture of vets and non-vets. Most of the combat takes place on open ground with defensive bonuses that I can tell.

It didn't seem to matter, because on both offense and defense, I was getting creamed, losing at a 3-1 ratio to her units. One regular swordman was taking out my veteran swordman, chariots, and horseman. Even fortified spearman on some forested tiles got eaten through really easily. After losing over 75% of my force, I just quit the game out of disgust.

Does the AI get combat bonuses at the reagent level where they can slice through me like butter? What could I have done to prevent this?

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

	26-11-2002 07:08									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Swordsmen usually tear through all units before Pikemen.

While it's probably pretty bad luck to get torn up so bad, it's not all that unusual

Sorry, that's just how it is. Sounds like you had a mix of mostly offensive forces anyways (i.e. they're not so good defending, no matter what terrain or whether or not they're fortified). You should have attacked instead, you would have had much better odds.

	26-11-2002 07:12									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Why was the warfare on open ground? You need to create kill zones... your troops on hills and mountains, and the enemy's funneled into vulnerable positions.

Also, in how many of the individual battles were you on offense or defense? Were you just trying to stand toe-to-toe and slug it out? Screw that... ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK!!! Relative strength INCLUDES at the point of battle.

	26-11-2002 07:29									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

mountians dont do anything for you if your attacking right.

	26-11-2002 07:33									#5
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The best defense against agaist swordsmen is a good offense, keep them from pilaging your improvements, and attack them with war chariots and your swordsmen. Keep THEIR swordsmen on the defensive since they are vulnerable when attacked because of thier stats. (3a.2d)

	26-11-2002 07:35									#6
	Support Apolyton

30 turns after 1000AD would be somewhere near 1300AD and if you are fighting a battle at that timpoint with horsemen, swordsmen, and spears you have totally blown the game from a raw level of understanding what you should be doing.

By that time period you should have cavalry at least and your spearmen should be a fond memory.

I would echo the comments of don't wait for the enmey to attack you on open ground, that is insane. You should have technologically more adavnced unit and you have to use mobility to pick off the enemy unit while you hold the stronger terrain positions.

I think you need to look to playing a stronger opening game so you will be in a better position to dominate whatever combat events arise.

Nothing is really "wrong" with the combat system. You are just choosing to play in it with the worst possible choices you can implement. This only takes some annoying factors and turns them into full blown festering sores that would get my gander up too if I played that way.

	26-11-2002 07:45									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

cracker, you are a f-cking Civ god, but pull your punches once in a while!!

Oh, and RKC, none of us answered your last question: there are no difficulty level combat advantages or impacts.

	26-11-2002 07:57									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Or, go back to the turn before the war, and give the french your map!

It always kills me how people have this prejudice telling them they can't give in to a computer. If someone is stronger than you, or even matches you, it's generally not in your best interest to be rude to them. Instead, give them the map, build up your military, and take half their empire.

This is a strategy game; part of the strategy is no doubt knowing how to win a war against superior forces. But the bigger part is knowing when to avert war.

	26-11-2002 08:13									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Theseus is correct they only combat advantage built in is the one humans get against barbs at all levels except deity. Bad luck, bad tatics are the usually causes. If it gives you any comfort the map is not worth anything anyway so if you are not sure you can whip them, try to give them the map and less money until you are ready. No way do I want to be using 1 move units at that point in time against swords. Why be nice?

	26-11-2002 08:33									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Thanks for the replies. As far as the amount of off/def I was doing was about 50/50. The terrain was open and very little defensive bonuses, except for forests. Even though I have been playing for a couple weeks now, I am still trying to master the game, possible using outdated CIV2 tactics which may not work in this game. I will try to incorporate some of the advice I've gotten here.

	26-11-2002 08:44									#11
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We all try to be very helpful... try some of the early game threads in the strat forum, and also, when ready, post some SAVs.

	26-11-2002 08:49									#12
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P.S.

I made a mistake in saying when I made contact and the ensuing battle. It was around 500 ad making contact and about 750 ad when the battles started. Am I still behind the curve in tech at this time that I need to tweak my research tactics? Would still having chariots and swordsmen at this juncture be a major concern?

If I am, please let me know if I need to radically alter my research priorities.

	26-11-2002 09:37									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It appears as though you are a BIT behind, but not by much. Don't worry about it too much. You should be near the Middle Ages by that point.

Some things to keep in mind while playing Civ 3:

It's not Civ 2. You might as well learn how to play over again, because many things aren't the same.

The combat system is very 'random', so make sure you have a VAST superiority in numbers if you hope to win. If not, don't be surprised if you lose.

Beyond that, check out the strat forum like was mentioned earlier. A wealth of information.

	26-11-2002 10:37									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Can't help you with specific tactics RKC, but I would like to say that, if you want to increase the fun of your wars try a couple of things:

1) Get your hands on the "Exponential Mod" by Maeglin?? It really helps to eliminate that whole "Spearman kills Tank" scenario (though I personally have seen that myself )

2) Use the editor to adjust some of the hp of the various units, to further differentiate them from the standard types. (That's one of the main things I love about the patch 1.29 editor!!)

Anyway, I hope info has helped you for future games!

	26-11-2002 12:01									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Yes, the combat can be very random.

For example, your modern armor (attack 24) can lose to a fortified rifleman (defence 6 +50% fortified +50% city = 13,5). Or a spearman (defence 2 +50%fortified +50%city = 4,5) can take 3 hitpoints from my elite modern armor... these has happened to me a couple of times. But all you can do is take those hits...