26-11-2002 10:29									#1
	Optimal FP Placement Full PM-box? Change here!

Hey All,

Just wondering what all u fellows think is the optimal forbidden palace placement. I mean, u don't want to overlap the palace and FP zones of influence but u don't want to have cities not utilized because the two zones are to far apart. So, just wondering if u guys would share u knowledge, or show me the respective link if i have missed one on this.

	26-11-2002 11:16									#2
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There are two basic approaches to building the Forbidden Palace. Build it, or rush it with a Great Leader.

If you have a Great Leader handy, the Forbidden Palace really can be anywhere, even another continent.

If you're going to build it, you need enough production in the target city to make it practical. I've had fairly good success building it 3 "rings" away from my palace.

The way I see it, each government center (palace or FP) has an inner ring of cities 3-4 squares from the center that has minimal corruption, typically 15% or so. Overlapping those inner rings, so that some cities are adjacent to both the Palace and the FP, seems like a serious waste.

A city 3 rings away, which means the inner rings touch but don't overlap, typically has 75% corruption. A courthouse will cut that to roughly 50%, which means it's well worth building a courthouse before starting the FP.

Fortunately, unlike the FP, you can rush the courthouse. You can chop down adjacent forests, or if you've got a lot of newly conquered population, pop-rush it.

You may want to add a few spare workers to the city to bring up production. I strongly prefer to use a city on a river so I can bring the population above 6 without building an aquaduct. Typically the I end up with 5-6 shields production, which means the FP will take 34-40 turns to build.

- Gus

	26-11-2002 11:55									#3
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I agree with GusSmed...I usually don't hope for a leader, but try to build the FP asap. If I receive a leader later, I will relocate the palace into newly conquered territory which also means that my new cities are less likely to flip back.

If you have a couple of luxuries, rushing a marketplace might be useful as well, WLTKD also lowers production, so you might save another 15 rounds which are worth the 400 gold you'd have to invest.

	26-11-2002 13:43									#4
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One other tactic that is not unheard of, is to slap the FP near the palace. This lets you move the palace as often as you wish. It also has the advantage that you can build the FP in a city that has good production. The palace can be built with a leader later.

	26-11-2002 14:16									#5
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Thank u all for ur replys.

Never had much luck with getting Great Leaders but thats my poor use of elites and plain lack of warring skills, so i usually stick to building it if i can. I just don't like taking a city out of the production loop to wait for a FP to be built that could take 100 or so turns.
I'm also sentimental to which city my Palace begins the game in and so i never really move it.

I've heard that placing the FP in a rivals civs empty capital city can be a good idea, thoughts?

	26-11-2002 14:23									#6
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how about:

If you have an F lying down, or standing on it's legs or something, you start in one leg, when you come to the bend or t-cross you build your FP and when you come to the other one, you relocate your palace, that way you keep everything in as small a corruption as possible.

That is of course , only if you plan on conquering that continent and that continent only

	26-11-2002 15:52									#7
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 One other tactic that is not unheard of, is to slap the FP near the palace. This lets you move the palace as often as you wish. It also has the advantage that you can build the FP in a city that has good production. The palace can be built with a leader later.

That's the strategy I use, the flexibility that you get is very important, as you never know how and where you will expand at latter stages of the game.

So long...

	26-11-2002 17:21									#8
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 One other tactic that is not unheard of, is to slap the FP near the palace. This lets you move the palace as often as you wish. It also has the advantage that you can build the FP in a city that has good production. The palace can be built with a leader later.

I'm a newbie, but I like this tactic too. The other advantage it has is that, the sooner you build the FP, the sooner it starts generating culture.

	26-11-2002 18:03									#9
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In most of my games I have placed the FP to relatively close to my capital. Then in later phase I have moved my capital to further places (rushbuild with a leader). This won't damage very much the production in former core cities, because they are fully developed, huge and happy (WLTKD).

In my current game My homeland is huge continent. The americans on another continent declared a war against me. So I captured some of their cities and rushed palace to the new continent... My income (gold production surplus) increased 50%!!! (I had several other cities in that new continent already).
When I checked the old capital and cities near to it, there was only very little corruption/waste (less than 5% corruption)...

	26-11-2002 20:25									#10
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I too like building the FP close to the original capitol and then using a leader to rush a palace elsewhere. There are times when I have been able to merely rush a FP in a perfect spot, with the palace also optimal, but those are relatively rare.

In the game I was playing last night, I built the FP two cities over from my capitol. It was roughly the center of my empire at the time, and later, when I moved my palace to occupied Egypt, it took care of my original core cities well enough.

Flip,

Check out a thread called "FP + Palace Placement" or something like that (use the search function). It's all about this type of thing, and has some screenshots and stuff.

-Arrian

	26-11-2002 20:55									#11
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 One other tactic that is not unheard of, is to slap the FP near the palace. This lets you move the palace as often as you wish. It also has the advantage that you can build the FP in a city that has good production. The palace can be built with a leader later.

Dido on what Arrian posted. I'd also like to mention that the FP city can be flipped, but the Palace can't.


Here is the only valid arguement against this strategy.
You end up with less culture in the long run.

And the stock rebuttle.
Good, I don't want a cultural victory

	26-11-2002 20:58									#12
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FP and Palace dont' have overlapping zones of control.

Every city is ranked by order of distance to both the Palace and Forbiden Palace with the lowest rank chosen.

So what you want to do is pick a FP location that roughly splits the empire in half when the cities are ranked by distance from each of them.

If your building the FP with a normal build you will want the following structures pre-built first. (Rushing after 1 turn normal build is a good idea)

1. Temple
2. Court House
3. Market Place
4. Catherdrial.
5. If needed an Aquaduct. (But natural aquaducts are highly prefered)
6. Perhaps a Collosum if it means the difference between having a WLTPD and not having one while the FP is under construction.

Size of the map matters, because optimum number of cities varies by map size.

	26-11-2002 23:21									#13
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joncnunn - that is an aweful lot of pre-builts on you list. I'll take your top 3 but the rest are putting off build for to long IMO.

I've also been told that FP flipping is not very likely since 1.29. It would still be a gamebreaker or at the very least a good reason to quit.

	26-11-2002 23:32									#14
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On the Emperor level, you often need the Catherdrial on a FP with a natural aquaduct to ensure it reamins in WLTPD throughout the build. Without a natural aquaduct you often need an aquaduct to use some more tiles with shields. (If it wouldn't the city probably isn't a good choice for a FP anyway.) Having a WLTPD is usually very important to ensure the FP gets built in a reasonable timeframe.

And you don't wait for all those structures to finish naturally, you rush all of them as fast as possible because you'll make the money back very quickly.

	27-11-2002 01:45									#15
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I've never tried to get a WLTPD to build the FP or P. I assume you use the luxury slider too? And max the # of luxuries too? I will have to keep this in mind.

I always use a GL to build these projects, so I don't have much experience building them. Other than build the FP next to my capital (which is harder challenging).

	27-11-2002 02:15									#16
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When I get Great Leaders, there's always something I can build that's better for them, so I always normal build the FP following the rushing of pre-builds.

In this particlar case, I got as many luxaries as possible (which was only 4 because the dumb Astecs didn't have a Harbor built.) Calculations showed that even combined 10% luxaries and Colossum wouldn't have caused a WLTPD, so I didn't bother with either. (Catherdrial was in fact needed to ensure order maintaigned while building it without entertainers.) The FP was built somewhat closer to my palace than I would have chosen had a WLTPD been feasible. (Second ring out with fresh water and lots of flood plains & hills instead of third ring out with lots of plains & hills. Tiny map.)

If you expand equally in all directions from your palace, then a city next to your existing Palace may in fact be the best location for a FP, but such equal expansions are rare.

	27-11-2002 03:18									#17
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When I build the FP manually but far from the capitol, I will use the following:

temple
courthouse

As I usually play religious civs, the temple is usually done very early (10 turns, rush). The courthouse may be forest-chop assisted and then bought. I allow the city to get to size 6, and turn 1 citizen into an entertainer. That should get the city into WLTKD (of course this depends on the luxury situation). Most of the time, this results in 3-4 shields in a non-GA situation. More if in GA.

-Arrian

	27-11-2002 10:53									#18
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This question has probably been answered eons ago in the FP thread, but here goes: if you build the FP, does the Palace jump still work? In other words, will the Palace always jump to the FP city (due to higher culture, assuming you haven't built any other cultural improvements)?


Dominae

	27-11-2002 13:19									#19
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In my recent game:

my original palace was in the city with black circle.
my fp is in the city with red circle
my new palace is in the city with blue circle (far away in the other continent)

I had less than 5% corruption&waste in the broad lower part of my original continent, so building palace to new continent really helps your economy and production.

Attachment: pfp.png
This has been downloaded 115 time(s).

	27-11-2002 21:16									#20
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With just the lower half of the contienant, orignal Palace & FP locations look ideal.

The addition of the the northen part of the contienant would have made a lot more cities FP centric than Palace centric. The lopsideiness remains after capturing all small islands on the map.

On the new contienant, the western part of it was old Palace centric, but the south central portion was FP centric.

The main reason that the overall economy improved after moving that original palace, is that under the new palace location, the cities are almost exactly evenly split between being FP centric and New Palace centric.

	27-11-2002 22:13									#21
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aaglo,

I would have attacked the Green civ up north (Greece?)and moved the palace to the city where their culture is jutting eastward into yours. That should cover the entire northern bulge, and your coastal cities along the bay (SE of my proposed palace location). That way you would have 1 gigantic, productive continent (the grey civ - Zulu? - could be wiped out easily).

-Arrian

	29-11-2002 11:51									#22
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I played this game trying out the oscillating wars - system. And my next target would have been the greeks and Indians (the small gray mass), but the game ended on domination after I wiped out the americans (Cyan)...

	30-11-2002 01:07									#23
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Here's the FP+Palace Placement Thread.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...alace+Placement