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Who should be the next Director of Social Engineering?
This poll is closed. |
| Hercules |
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9 |
40.91% |
| Archaic |
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10 |
45.45% |
| Write-in |
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0 |
0% |
| Xenobanana |
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3 |
13.64% |
| Total: |
22 voters |
100% |
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Joeno
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Candidates:
Hercules
Archaic
Write-in
Xenobanana
You have three days.
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Darkness' Edge
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Give Archaic a go. He's proved time and time again he knows what he's talking about - let's give him a chance to prove himself.
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Hercules
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in Tir Na Og
Sep 2002
time: 05:23
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This is from one of the learned guides to SMAC/X
quote:
Peacekeepers:
Early on, you've practically got no choice whatsoever - Dem/FM/Wealth is your combo -
Planetary Governorship should be your goal - a boom is necessary before the first elections are called to ensure this. Once you have boomed, and Air becomes available, a switch to Green is unavoidable - you need the efficiency, as well as air units. |
Note the word unavoidable. And it is not just one authority that takes that view.
We have still someway to go and we are not talking about switching to green tomorrow because we can't: we haven't got green as an option yet.
The debate now is not just about switching to green as soon as possible but about preparing for that eventuality and being sensible. This means no reckless removal of fungus which we can utilise later in the game, perhaps minimal use of boreholes and the reduction if not complete stop to the 80 level of eco damage by a number of strategies suggested elsewhere.
When it comes, the switch to green is not to every other factions liking so we must aim to have sufficient defence in place as a deterrent before the switch.
Drogue , myself and others have already acknowledged that in the early establishing phase some non environmentally friendly activity occurs out of the need to survive, so I am not suggesting a complete turnaround. what I am suggesting is care and forethought.
Green with other SE choices can faciliate both the conquer game and the transcendance game. But I think you also, we also, want a safe pleasant and secure environment in the future. You want to be able to visit the crech, stroll in the forest without fear of worm rape. You want to be able to visit the hologram theatre and recreational commons without fear of flooding. It is your future, give me your vote.
Last edited by Hercules on 27-11-2002 at 20:19
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Archaic
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Washed up SMAC/X University Specialist
Nov 2001
time: 15:23
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For this term anyway. In the next term, I hope to have got through a proposal to make it when you vote for a canditate, you vote for their policies.
Herc, just because you can't play the Morganites all that well (No offense, but you're woefully behind in the Battle of Planet MP. And guess who's leading I might add?) doesn't mean FM should be discarded. That guide assumes an average player, but there are ways and means to do things beyond what that guide suggests. And even so, for this term at least, that guide supports my FM position.
Drouge - I stand for Demo/FM/Wealth. I don't have any particular preferance for the future SE's at this time, mainly because I don't know what projects we'll snag. If we have the vats, then the PK's should be at the forefront of the Brave New World, and go TC. If we have the Backbone, we go Cybernetic.
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Aaron Blackwell
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Brussels Belgium
Nov 2002
time: 05:23
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quote:
Herc, just because you can't play the Morganites all that well (No offense, but you're woefully behind in the Battle of Planet MP. And guess who's leading I might add?) doesn't mean FM should be discarded. That guide assumes an average player, but there are ways and means to do things beyond what that guide suggests. And even so, for this term at least, that guide supports my FM position. |
That is a wolly VERY UNFAIR argument that you are using there Archaic. 
Frankly, I don't care if Hercules can or cannot play the morganites properly as we are playing the PeaceKeeper. Besides, it is an out-ouf-character argument that you are using there and that is only valid for MP with only a single player leading each faction.
==> I will thus have to ask you NOT to use this kind of argument.  (((  )))
I would like to hear more constructive reasoning of yours instead of hearing a parrot repeating what he has heard without giving any fact to support his assumpion.=>This is valid for your as well Hercules (((  )))
Now, I guess that they are real things that are at stakes here.
We may not have that many SE options for the moment, but the ones we have can have a drastic impact on our faction.
The only thing you have said so far is that you are in favor of Democratic/Free Market/Wealth society.
On the other hand, you give absolutely no suggestion to why you choose this, what are your prediction on the impact of such choices, and more importantly what you will suggest in order to solve the problems these choices will cause. 
Hercules has at least mentioned the efficiency problem.
Besides, I see that you are in favor of Though Control Policies, should our research allows us to achieve a SE like this.
Adding to this the fact that you are in favor of Free Market/wealth choices and the lack of clear justification for such choices, I am forced to logically conclude that you are in favor of a world where a selected few will be able to get all the riches of that world, in the expense of the freedom and quality of life of the majority,
while at the same time destroying the environment just to fill your energy wallet.    (((  )))
Archaic, you are a real danger to the democracy as well as all the ethical values our faction stands for !!!!!!
(((((  ))))
Last edited by Aaron Blackwell on 28-11-2002 at 15:52
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Aaron Blackwell
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Brussels Belgium
Nov 2002
time: 05:23
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Archaic,
You are very wrong. I did read some of the former debate where you participate about SE choices.
I did even answer to the subject about the ecological consequance that FM would have should we switch to it now or in a near future.
And from all the post I have read from so far concerning FM, it seems to point out that you are clearly underestimating the negative effect of FM, especially the ecologic one.
Now I can be wrong, maybe I missed some thread, but Yes I did read some of the debate about this subject prior to my first thread in this post.
Beside, you are the one applying for this job. It is thus not my role to search every single thread where you would have spoken about the subject.
It is up to you to make a clear, concive and complete presentation on what your objectives will be should you be elected to this post which you haven't for the moment. Just saying that you want such and such SE choice is not enough if these choices are not supported by a clear and productive explanation of those choices.
Besides, DBTS has (appropriately I think) asked to hear the speech of the candidates in this thread.
And you also mentioned this
quote:
Is there really any debate needed? If there's any questions about my policies, I'll gladly give you answers. |
So, I suppose you will not mind if I ask those following questions ? :
- How do you intend to make switch from Planned to Free Market ? In the short, middle or long term ?
- What will you suggest we could do in order to solve the Drones and Eco-Damage that Free Market will cause ?
- Do you think we really need FM to cause Fungal Bloom whereas we have NA already causing lot of eco-damage ?
- Though FM will provide us with more research, haven't we better option for the moment to alleviate this problem ? Like building more infrastructure ( which we are lacking for the moment) and pop booming with our planned/Democracy/Children Creche combo ?
- There was a debate about either building the Planetary Transit System or Citizen Defence force first. Though I did not agree at the beginning, the point of view of other citizen has convinced me that the PTS will be more beneficial to us as we are going to build a few more cities in the near future.
Isn't supporting Free Market contradicting the expansion politics we are following for the moment by building the PTS (which was supported by the majority) and colony pods ?
- Why have said the following sentence while saying that you would "gladly agree to answer any question" ?
quote:
I'm not going to keep repeating myself. |
After all, not everybody has had the opportunity to hear your whole point of view on the subject.
Now, you have the opportunity to simply give the link to the statment you have made in the past to make your job easier.
But again, you may not be wanting to repeating yourself, but I am not really wanting to make a full search of the forums for each of your single post.
Now, I do agree that I am fairly biased toward people who says they are in favor of though control policies 
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Archaic
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Washed up SMAC/X University Specialist
Nov 2001
time: 15:23
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I'm restricted to posting at the moment from a Pentium 70 computer with a 28.8kbps internet connection, thanks to that blown motherboard (I won't be back on my proper computer until Monday night my time). You can't seriously expect me to re-post every single arguement I've made.
Aaron Blackwell, you say...
quote:
And from all the post I have read from so far concerning FM, it seems to point out that you are clearly underestimating the negative effect of FM, especially the ecologic one.
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I say that's a pathetic arguement with nothing to back it up. People like you and Unskilled Labourer Pan have been *overstating* the negative effects of FM from the very beginning, especially those dealing with Drone problems and the Ecology.
Now then....
quote:
- How do you intend to make switch from Planned to Free Market ? In the short, middle or long term ?
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Short. ie. ASAP.
quote:
- What will you suggest we could do in order to solve the Drones and Eco-Damage that Free Market will cause ?
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Eco-Damage won't be hightened at any base which isn't already producing it. At any base that is....it's a secondary concern. Any destroyed terraforming can be repaired before we need to use the square again, because we'll have specialists in the base anyway (That would be something I'd be pushing for even without needing Drone Control I might add.)
As for Drones.....oh lookie lookie what I said about specialists.
quote:
- Do you think we really need FM to cause Fungal Bloom whereas we have NA already causing lot of eco-damage ?
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I never said anything about needing FM to cause Fungal Bloom. Don't distort my position. I said it was a bad idea to *prevent* Fungal Bloom like some people are suggesting we do.
quote:
- Though FM will provide us with more research, haven't we better option for the moment to alleviate this problem ? Like building more infrastructure ( which we are lacking for the moment) and pop booming with our planned/Democracy/Children Creche combo ?
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We don't really have the Nut support at the moment to boom to a level enough to make it worthwhile. Infrastructure is better served through the extra credits from Market allowing us to hurry items sooner.
quote:
- There was a debate about either building the Planetary Transit System or Citizen Defence force first. Though I did not agree at the beginning, the point of view of other citizen has convinced me that the PTS will be more beneficial to us as we are going to build a few more cities in the near future.
Isn't supporting Free Market contradicting the expansion politics we are following for the moment by building the PTS (which was supported by the majority) and colony pods ?
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No. It isn't. For reasons of B-Drones (No-police drones are countered by the PTS, thank you very much). -2 Effic at this point is more of a threat than -5 Police.
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Aaron Blackwell
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Brussels Belgium
Nov 2002
time: 05:23
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Thank you very much by answering , even if not appropriately, all my questions.
Still, considering the hardware problems you have for the moment and the fact that you have so 'kindly' answered me, I'll make an effort and try to answer you in the most polite and constructive way I can.
****************
quote:
You can't seriously expect me to re-post every single arguement I've made. |
I am not asking for that, just that you make a good summary of the policy you support with some fact and explanation to why you are supporting it ....... which I've said before in this thread.
But worry not, I understand that , with the elections, you are under pressure, so I will not blame you for this little inattention of yours. After all, nobody died of it
************************
Then you said that
quote:
I say that's a pathetic arguement with nothing to back it up. People like you and Unskilled Labourer Pan have been *overstating* the negative effects of FM from the very beginning, especially those dealing with Drone problems and the Ecology. |
but you also said that
quote:
You can't seriously expect me to re-post every single arguement I've made. |
Do you expect me to copy and paste all the threads that prove that I am correct ? But worry not, the rest of the thread will clearly demonstrate that you are NOT taking every fact into account, only the ones that suit your demonstration.
quote:
Eco-Damage won't be hightened at any base which isn't already producing it. At any base that is....it's a secondary concern. |
New Apolyton is already producing something like 80 eco-damage/turn. By switching to FM, the number will rise to something like 160 !!! Is that a secondary concern for you ?
And we would have to remove quite a few crawlers/workers to get it down to an acceptable level. This will cause problems as it will severly slow down to build infrastructure at NA and to get the CDF secret project there. ( Because Morgan will switch its production from PTS to CDF).
That is two point you did not acknowledge so far. Unfortunately, the list continues.
***************************
you have said this
quote:
Any destroyed terraforming can be repaired before we need to use the square again |
but also ( and accurately for once ) said this
quote:
We don't really have the Nut support at the moment to boom to a level enough to make it worthwhile. |
If we do not have enough nut for Pop Boom, we do not have enough nut at all period. This means that our former will have to build farm/condensor or farm on nutrient bonus to alleviate this problem.
They will not be able to do that if they have to remove fungus and repair previous terrain ehancement.
Besides, Fungal Bloom will cause mind worms to appear and because of Pacifist Drone, it will be difficult to send regular troops to protect them. And because they will be unable to attack first due to FM planet penalty, there will be casualties which, in turn, will force some of our bases to build and replace any troop/former that will be lost.
That is an additional two problems caused by FM that again, you do not recognize.
**********************
Let's continue. You said this
quote:
I never said anything about needing FM to cause Fungal Bloom. Don't distort my position. I said it was a bad idea to *prevent* Fungal Bloom like some people are suggesting we do. |
but you also (again accurately) said this
quote:
Eco-Damage won't be hightened at any base which isn't already producing it. |
and in the STEP thread you said this
quote:
Oh bloody oath, not another treehugging leftie party. Get a reality cheque and learn how the progress of a Free Market reduces the Eco Damage we do in the long term while increasing our production ability in the present. .......
By doing more damage now, we do less damage than we would later for the same minerals.
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So, you favor the use of FM to increase eco-damage to get free clean minerals but also aknowledge that FM has no effect on the number of clean minerals.
Thus, may I ask you the following question :
Do we really need FM to accomplish that ? Especially considering that with New Apolyton, we already proved that we can do a LOT of eco damage without resorting to FM. 
Besides, the real effect of FM is to make the eco damage more uncontrollable and will request us to divert ressource to counter its ill effect to clean fungus/replace troops and formers. 
*****
You said this
quote:
Any destroyed terraforming can be repaired before we need to use the square again, because we'll have specialists in the base anyway (That would be something I'd be pushing for even without needing Drone Control I might add.) |
Having not yet access to empath, the use of doctor to remove drone is a waste or ressources as these doctors will not producing nutrient for base growth/ minerals for base infrastructure/energy for research and cash.
Also as I have said recently in a thread I started, we already have some bases who are using doctor to prevent drone riots (namely Tacitus Academy and Concordia)
Switching to FM will only make this problem worse as we will have the following bases with drone riot condition :
thisbasebelongtous, Zanarkand gate,Antioch and Concordia. More doctor needed => more waste
More discussion needed to find problem to solve these solution => More time not spent to improve our society => more waste
Besides, the use of specialist (even for economics/Research) is counterproductive with the use of FM, as the extra cash provided by this economic model is directly linked by the number of worker used !!!
Specialist gets no bonus for FM as well as no Malus for the other social models.
**************
Let's continue
quote:
Infrastructure is better served through the extra credits from Market allowing us to hurry items sooner. |
Switching to FM now will only provide us with 79 cash ( as opposed to 40 before). Do you expect to rush build a lot of infrastructure with this ?
Don't you think that the Industry bonus will not serve us better in this situation ?
Don't you think that some commissioner will have other plans for the cash accumulated so far ? ( Like upgrading military units, rush building secret projects).
To put it in another words, FM will not provide us with enough cash to consistently be able to use rush building.
*********
Oh !! And yes, the most beautiful one.
You said this
quote:
No. It isn't. For reasons of B-Drones (No-police drones are countered by the PTS, thank you very much). -2 Effic at this point is more of a threat than -5 Police. |
You were talking about the Planetary Transit System I suppose, not about the Telepathic Matrix ?
Correct me If I am wrong, but the PTS only suppress ONE drone and ONLY at base size 3 or lower.
May I suggest you to take a small look at the datalinks ? ((( ))) ( no offence itended)
Do you intend to keep all our base at this size ? Again, this is counter-production with the idea of using FM, as we will have less worker which in turn will lessen the energy bonus that FM could provide us with.
***************
quote:
I say that's a pathetic arguement with nothing to back it up. People like you and Unskilled Labourer Pan have been *overstating* the negative effects of FM from the very beginning, especially those dealing with Drone problems and the Ecology. |
Are you still conviced of that ? How come that people like me with 'pathetic' arguments are able to pinpoint so many problem with your politics while you are not ?
The only plausible reason would be that you are not analysing the consequence of your politics carefully enough.
No offence intended, but from this post and all the other I have read, you seem to be the person who is to proud of its own idea to try to look out for the possibe flaws in them.
And besides, as pathetic as my argument may be, they are , at least, based on facts and the current context.
I must also point out that , while I am not in favor of FM, that I am not discarding its possible use for the future. I just think we are clearly not prepared for that.
If I were to support the idea of FM, I would propose that we do whatever is needed to pop boom all our base and then go to FM, in order to maximize the bonus provided by it.
And maybe try to create Golden Age in all our bases when we have access to Empath for a grand total of +4 Economics => +1/square , +2/base , +2 commerce as opposed to +1/square,+1 commerce.
***************
I think that you are in great need of relaxation. I tell you what ...  ... If you legalize the Xeno-Cannabis, I'll support your FM policies.
The culture of Xeno-Cannabis will GREATLY reduce the eco-damage and the drone problem will be solved by the use of Xeno-spliff 
Okay end of rant 
Have a good one
EDIT MODE :
And congratulations and good luck for your nomination
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26-11-2002 16:37
It just seems evil!
. i think you may be taking this a *bit* too seriously 
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