28-11-2002 01:54									#1
	Fair Starting Positions Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I know many use premade maps to equalize starting positions, or they did so in the past. The main problem i have with these maps is even if you rotate 7-10 of them, its like playing the world map after awhile, in the sense that you know where the huts and/or specials are... little replay value here.

so we are left with crappy random generator maps, which often screw some , or put people to close to each other etc etc....

Now that the game has been out in MP for for over 4years, and we have all gotten better/more efficient in our playing styles, though some of you still lag behind , most of the cheats, or bugs have been sorted and we all play with a set of rules which we find best suited for our temperments, or with a group of players which offer us the most enjoyment for our time.

Has the continued development of trade ruined the game for players. I know many players who can't compete without land that i would normally drool over.

We all know wandering can pay off, ie finding gold, or a few four legged units from huts, and other times it backfires (crap land , or crap huts)

With trade being specialized , you really take a chance opening a hut, or lagging behind in despotism for an addtional 600 years, these things early can make or break your game.

Now good players always over come bad luck, but if your up against a skilled player who gets the breaks, and you don't, your going to lose plain and simple.

Even if you remove huts and wonders (to even it up so to speak) then rivers become HUGE. So truly, you must find trade to compete long term, b/c you can't steal every tech quick enough to prevent a horde of attackers from a different time period from invading your lands.

So really the only thing that will seperate two equal players , is terrain. If you have more of it, or it is better, then your sheer numbers will win.

Its interesting to see the evolution of the game, how we/i used to play , compared to the way i play now. Many things have changed. The one constant in this game , and what this game revolves around has not.

It has been proven many a time that you dont' need happy wonders/any wonders for that matter to win, but its damm hard to win, with only production, if you have no real trade to speak of. (unless you start within 10squares of your rival)

any thoughts on this?

	28-11-2002 03:19									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well the obvious anwser to that is to play with alot of players. Hopefully if you're of equal skill you can keep the margin narrow. If there's alot of players around, and the map is small enough hopefully people can't commit all their resources on smashing you, lest their backdoor be bashed in by other players.

As far as "starting" I think every player is allowed a 2 grassland start....as far as a capital. And an area that will allow them to get their 5-7 cities, for deity level at least.

Problem is too often the top players, usually 1 and 2, get stuck in their ties of trade convience, and the idea of attacking each other is impossible, and they go about killing the weaker trade blocks. The end.

I guess the next step is to ban foreign trade with caravans in a game. might change some strategies.

	28-11-2002 04:23									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

YES, on land its easy to smash caravans, but coming off a boat, sometimes there is little you can do..

however many people also use their capital, or best trade city and internalize..which works well , not as well as foreign trade, but does work well...

if someone finds a one tile island, look out .....2 continent trading strat goes through the roof, or the repeated commodity .....

	28-11-2002 04:30									#4
	Remove this text

Yeah... land can make all the difference in the world with players of equal skill. And one or two huts either way can also make the differece. And early barbs can kill expansion. A barb king also can really help. There is some "luck" in the game, and land is only one of them... hopefully it all balances out

	28-11-2002 06:09									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

and that is part of the charm.......but when a game is decided by luck, that is kinda lame too.....

tho most the time this isn't a problem......

	28-11-2002 07:35									#6
	Got spare money?

If Ming wins it is never luck that decides the outcome, only skill.


Hydey goes off with a brown bag full of money.

	28-11-2002 07:39									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

if Ming wins, he should buy a lottery ticket j/k

	28-11-2002 07:47									#8
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Land is just one of the luck factors. But it is one of the bigger ones. Other luck is easier to overcome when it's bad. Land is tougher and it takes longer to make up for.

	28-11-2002 07:57									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

yes i agree...... but early tribes or nomads, especially more than one, can just devestate someone......it all snowballs, i just like it when the game evens things up

	28-11-2002 08:31									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Jeez war - in history did Britain get a fair starting position?

I'm really surprised at you War - this is the sort of nonsense those diplo games morons argue about

	28-11-2002 08:38									#11
	Got spare money?

actually AH i am not really *****ing, i am just pointing out how the game has specialized now that we all know it like the back of our hand........

the game is still evolving for those of us who continue to play, and that is good, maybe one day people will scream and a rave about production

	28-11-2002 08:53									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

Well I'll play any start. I've had some real bad ones. Bad starts just have different challenges. You set different goals. I find almost any situation in the game fun.

	28-11-2002 09:12									#13
	Remove this text

same.. it's fun to just roll with the luck either way. I got a crappy South Pole start recently but doing well now. If I'm up against a player of equal or better skill who got a better start I just do as AH suggested - set strategic goals....

	28-11-2002 11:28									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Is my very recent episode of 3 consecutive tribes out of 3 consecutive huts - creating my 3rd, 4th and 5th cities - any sort of record? I should hasten to add that this post shouldn't be read in the context of the "luck" that is being bandied around in this thread. Tipping huts properly obviously takes skill.

	28-11-2002 12:00									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I once got 3 advanced tribes, for my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th cities, then a settler, which I think eventually made my 6th. It was all very funny untill everyone attacked me en mass the rest of the game. Ironicly, all the cities were pretty well placed.

	28-11-2002 17:39									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Frank Johnson I once got 3 advanced tribes, for my 2nd, 3rd, and 4th cities, then a settler, which I think eventually made my 6th. It was all very funny untill everyone attacked me en mass the rest of the game. Ironicly, all the cities were pretty well placed.

That's creepy, Frank. I got a settler out of the hut I tipped before the hut I tipped that produced my first advanced tribe. I kept him for roads and irrigation. My advanced tribes were very handily placed too - one with a whale, one with a pheasant. Luckily I'm playing with Deity, Horse and Hydey so I'm fairly safe. They're all renowned ICSers.

	28-11-2002 23:49									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i have been in games where markus has rattled off three tribes in a row, and then a nomad and two more tribes the next two turns.....

your done for when someone pulls this type of magic off....

i had a game the other night, where i received two nomads and three tribes in a span of 10 turns....even this is ridiculous.......

with that kind of start the game is hardly fair to my opposition.... especially when the land was juicy as well.

	29-11-2002 02:10									#18
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Obviously the game realises your lacking skill levels and compensates by giving you free cities, that explains why Great players never get luck like this.

	29-11-2002 02:25									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly now Hydey

its nice to see the troll and mini me showed up for the debate

	29-11-2002 03:50									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by War4ever its nice to see the troll and mini me showed up for the debate

Starting position and hut luck has a huge influence n the game. Nothing worse than being boxed in on a narrow spit of land.

	29-11-2002 08:38									#21
	Suffering from ads?

exactly horse...you spend all that time wandering around a one or two tile penisula while you enemy is rampaging through forests and open terrain....

the best players obviously realize this and make adjustments quicker than others.....

either that or they are loading a map on a second computer

	29-11-2002 10:19									#22
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by finbar That's creepy, Frank. I got a settler out of the hut I tipped before the hut I tipped that produced my first advanced tribe. I kept him for roads and irrigation. My advanced tribes were very handily placed too - one with a whale, one with a pheasant. Luckily I'm playing with Deity, Horse and Hydey so I'm fairly safe. They're all renowned ICSers.

Don't forget that when playing with Roving Bands settings the statistical chance of this happenning is much higer I think.

	29-11-2002 13:33									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Starting position and hut luck has a huge influence n the game. Nothing worse than being boxed in on a narrow spit of land.

Yeah, it's really tough to figure out "research mapmaking"

But your right, it is a considerable dissadvantage.

RAH

	29-11-2002 20:19									#24
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by War4ever either that or they are loading a map on a second computer

	30-11-2002 02:07									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

yes i don't mind a challenge, but i don't want to be the only player who is challenged, when the rest of my rivals are having a cakewalk.....

unless my phalanx are going to defeat their battle ships

	30-11-2002 04:44									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

the fewer the players te bigger the advantage.

if you are in one of deity's 7 man 1x1x games the advantage becomes minimal over the course of the game. If its a duel a couple whales can be a game ender. Thats why if you are gonna play duels its best to play the way we are, War. (best of 10 each player hosts 5 no restarts except for techs)

At least after 10 games it should even out.

BTW I'm lookin forward to finishing that first one.

	30-11-2002 09:34									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

yes DD, icq me when you want to continue.....:b its time to start finishing games again

	30-11-2002 10:35									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Why don't some of you guys stop playing 2x litt;e games and get into a long running 1x1x game - I've been in some beauties that have finished. 5 players is more reliable perhaps. The rewards of getting into the end game with a Space Race, Nukes and etc with 4-7 players is so cool.
Any of the 2 timesers interested in this>?
USA Thurs night?

	30-11-2002 10:46									#29
	Support Apolyton

well deity, thursdays dont work for me, the real problem is that if my life dictates that i have other things to do, then i wn't be able to make a date , whichever day of the week that is.....

you and i have been down this road before, i just can't commit to a long term game on a certain night, cuz my schedual changes so much

otherwise i would love to play with you guys.....

plus those guys hate x1x1 so its a double whammy.

all the 3-4 player games end the same way after one night nowadays, either one person dominates or two players share a lead which gives the others little incentive to continue.

diplo games are alot of fun with the right people, but personality clashes, scheduales, commitment, life, can be extremely difficult for many of us....

realistically the most i can do is playing one or two games in duel mode whenever my opponent and i share the same schedual. The problem with this is i often lose intereset in the game if a few weeks go by....not too mention i forget what the hell i am doing....

your a great player deity, its a shame that pragmatism gets in our way.....

	01-12-2002 22:31									#30
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by War4ever all the 3-4 player games end the same way after one night nowadays, either one person dominates or two players share a lead which gives the others little incentive to continue.

So true