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gsmoove23
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Well, I can see how you might see that as skewed but might I ask how you would explain having a 10 metre wide piece of land running the whole eastern and northeastern side of the lake? I think in that instance Britain was obviously pro-Israel.
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gsmoove23
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
This clearly states that according to the armstice, the eastern shore of the lake would be demilitarized, i.e. not syrian, and the lake's water resources would be Israeli by default, as Israel controlled the other bank. |
Yep, but if you read on you'll see that original plan broke down on both sides quite quickly. I realize the article doesn't agree completely with my previous line of thinking and I might have to adjust it if this is backed up in further readings.
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gsmoove23
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"tough. should have developed their water resourses wisely.
Israel has the same problem, But we import water from turkey, and start desalinization programs."
Uh, Israel did a couple of other things to 'develop' their water resources. West Bank helped, and of course the Golan. What I find hard to take is that Israel complains so loudly about its water resources, while the whole region struggles with the problem.
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gsmoove23
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GePap you say it much better then I could have.
Cyber-Gnu, while I think you make some worthwhile posts I do wish you would take a more reasoned approach.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:24
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quote:
Well, I can see how you might see that as skewed but might I ask how you would explain having a 10 metre wide piece of land running the whole eastern and northeastern side of the lake? I think in that instance Britain was obviously pro-Israel.
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very simple. The lake had to belong to one of the superpowers, being so tiny in absolute terms, that dividing it would be silly.( how would you patrol the lake? with canoos?)
Placing the lake inside french territory would be illogical as well. That would mean that the coastal town of tiberias would be on one side, and the lake on the other, with the border going on the shore in the heart of the town. The other side of the lake had little in the way of human settlement, esp. comaring to the western side.
quote:
How does one develop water resources they don't have?
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desalanization is the way to go. in the meanwhile the could mine for water (drill to the aquifer)
quote:
."
Uh, Israel did a couple of other things to 'develop' their water resources. West Bank helped, and of course the Golan. What I find hard to take is that Israel complains so loudly about its water resources, while the whole region struggles with the problem
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where does Israel complain loudly? Lebanon screws israel over water, and noone cares. Israel is being attacked by Hizbollah? nothing. Israel may complain, but it surely is not reflected in the UN, which doesn't give a rat's ass. Btw, the westbank under Israeli rule has actually managed the water resources better than the palestinian authority, allowing more water for palestinians as well as for Israelis, and let us not forget the pollution of our streams by the West Bank's towns. 
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
desalanization is the way to go. in the meanwhile the could mine for water (drill to the aquifer)
where does Israel complain loudly? Lebanon screws israel over water, and noone cares. Israel is being attacked by Hizbollah? nothing. Israel may complain, but it surely is not reflected in the UN, which doesn't give a rat's ass. Btw, the westbank under Israeli rule has actually managed the water resources better than the palestinian authority, allowing more water for palestinians as well as for Israelis, and let us not forget the pollution of our streams by the West Bank's towns. |
If anyone is screwed by the water deal between Israel and Lebanon is lebanon. They get far less water ut of the same sources than Israel does. As for HIzbullah: they are carryoing attacks against Cheeba Farms. The worst I can see is to say that A lebanese organization is attcking Israeli troops on Israeli-occupied Syrian land. If Hizbullah attacked Israel itself, then you have an issue for the international community.
As for the West Bank: So we are going to judge how Palestinians use their water by 8 years of evidence controlling a limited amount of the water resources vs. Israel control of the water from 1967 to 1992? In no way is that s fair comparison.
Read reports by HRW and others on Israel's water policy. Compare water allocations for Israelis settlements and many Palestinian villages: Israel created a water infrastrcuture in the occupied territories from 1967 to 1992 to serve an occupation. The Plaestinians have had neither the time nor the resources to remake their water infrastructure. And as for Polution: of curse a very poor and highly agricultural economy will cause more polution if it is allowed ful sue of water than a richer, smaller, more urban one (from water infrastructure meant to provide for settlements to palestinian control.
The issue of water as a casue for the 1967 war has come up, as has a general water discussion. I found a very good link: the article is very long and detailed, but I think it is worthwile reading on the issue. it is not authoritative on the issue (nothing is, but its damn good):
http://www.pnl.gov/ces/academic/midleas2.htm
Last edited by GePap on 14-12-2002 at 00:33
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gsmoove23
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quote:
very simple. The lake had to belong to one of the superpowers, being so tiny in absolute terms, that dividing it would be silly.( how would you patrol the lake? with canoos?) |
That thinking is silly. It must be the first and only time that particular method was used to resolve a border dispute and it shows a complete disregard for the concerns of native inhabitants. Most times countries rely on natural obstructions in regard to borders.
quote:
where does Israel complain loudly? Lebanon screws israel over water, and noone cares. Israel is being attacked by Hizbollah? nothing. Israel may complain, but it surely is not reflected in the UN, which doesn't give a rat's ass. Btw, the westbank under Israeli rule has actually managed the water resources better than the palestinian authority, allowing more water for palestinians as well as for Israelis, and let us not forget the pollution of our streams by the West Bank's towns. |
One prime example is the article you gave me which I believe states erroneously that Syria has no problems with water. As for managing water resources better then the PA I know a pack of trained monkeys that could... However, I was of the opinion that Israel still managed the West Bank water resources or at least had settlement blocs in a number of strategic places to make this the case anyway. I'll have to take your word for it in regards to West Bank towns polluting, I've never heard anything about it.
Last edited by gsmoove23 on 14-12-2002 at 01:04
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gsmoove23
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Damn, keep cross posting with you Gepap. Do you believe the farms are occupied by Israeli soldiers? It always seemed pretty stupid to me, all that for a few acres.
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Az
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MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:24
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quote:
It must be the first and only time that particular method was used to resolve a border dispute and it shows a complete disregard for the concerns of native inhabitants. Most times countries rely on natural obstructions in regard to borders.
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you must be ****ing kidding. The imperial powers drew maps in rediculous ways, drawing straight lines hundreds of miles long.
quote:
. BUt do I care much that hizbullah is attacking Israeli troops in the occupied Golan? Not realy |
I hope you don't care when war breaks, too. This piece of land is:
a) about the size of my neighbourhood.
b) not the only place where Israeli soldiers have been attacked.
c) could cause a regional war.
quote:
If anyone is screwed by the water deal between Israel and Lebanon is lebanon. They get far less water ut of the same sources than Israel does |
errm, how come? there is only one source of water that Israel and lebanon share. in the past, the locals used all the water they needed from the river, while Israel it's share. Now, the Lebanonese ( Hizbullah ) try to pump away all the water, in the direct intention to spark a war, being the lackeys of the Iranians they are.
quote:
As for the West Bank: So we are going to judge how Palestinians use their water by 8 years of evidence controlling a limited amount of the water resources vs. Israel control of the water from 1967 to 1992? In no way is that s fair comparison.
Read reports by HRW and others on Israel's water policy. Compare water allocations for Israelis settlements and many Palestinian villages: Israel created a water infrastrcuture in the occupied territories from 1967 to 1992 to serve an occupation. The Plaestinians have had neither the time nor the resources to remake their water infrastructure. And as for Polution: of curse a very poor and highly agricultural economy will cause more polution if it is allowed ful sue of water than a richer, smaller, more urban one (from water infrastructure meant to provide for settlements to palestinian control.
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hmm, so how come do Palestinians get less water than during the occupation?
( I cannot source, But I distinctly read this in a newspaper, in the same place as the pollution problem )
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gsmoove23
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Here is a question for you CyberGnu, because I've wondered what you think about it from your previous posts. Does Israel have a right to exist? Do Israelis within the Green Line have a right to stay and should some Israeli settlements stay?
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CyberGnu
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of the Virtual Serengeti
Apr 1999
time: 05:24
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gsmoove, it depends on what you are asking.
Morally, I don't think Israel has a right to be there.
But practically, we all know that it isn't going away, and we will have to deal with reality. If we want a civilized solution to the conflict, we will have to accept Israels existance, and adhere to a deal.
(However, the settlements were implicitly part of the original Oslo accord, and I don't think we should expect the palestinians to accept a LESSER deal 10 years later...)
It is reminiscent of putting innocent people in jail... Yes, in a perfect world they should not be there, and morally, we have no right to put them there... But unfair things do happen, and we will just have to trust the system because it is the best we can come up with. You see what I mean?
Last edited by CyberGnu on 14-12-2002 at 04:56
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Azazel
Panag: you should be more cool-minded in these threads. This is the only way to go. don't let emotions get in the way. I, myself, had people I was familiar with (distantly) killed. But this changes nothing. Esp. nowadays, when everyone lives in the danger of global terrorism. |
hi ,
you might find it a bit difficult when your sister is waiting in the hospital for a operation to remove two bolts embedded next to her spinal core , .........
the main problem with "people" in far away countries thing that it cant happen to them , ......... well they are dead wrong , it can happen to anyone at anytime , ......
about the water , if the pals would not have destroyed themselves so much of the rain collecting and desalttation equipment , we would have a different land today , ........ we as Israeli's try to capture and possibly even reuse water , but no , the pals have to drill deeper and deeper , "oh says the world , what a shame" , but the world forgets a couple of things , when you drill on a hill its logical you have to drill deeper to get to the water , on top of that they dont want to talk about sustained supply , ....... no sir , they prefer to let the water run and go to waste , instead of collecting it , ......
take a look at a sattelite picture of Israel from 1970 and one from 1995 , Israel shows up like a green oasis , why , well because we try to get the max from out of what we have , ..........
as for syria , pfffffff , they have plenty of water , the same for jordan , the same for libanon , its not our fault that they are a bit lazzy to work , ........
and no-one is complaining that they are building dams to divert the water on the borders , but of course that is no news , .......... no-one talks about the syrians and jordans drilling water and then letting it run to the dessert where it evaporates without having any practical use , .......... the workers on the border are even to stupid to flush the toilet with water , ..............
water , well there is enough for all to go around , but its not the Israeli's fault that they are to stupid to work with it , .........
have a nice day
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panag
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MY WORDS ARE BACKED WITH BIO-CHEMICAL WEAPONS
Oct 2000
time: 07:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GePap
While I asure you Panag that everyone here hopes your sister gets better and finds what was done to her criminal and unacceptable, I still must disagree with your notion that someone form the outside can't 'know' enough to argue. Sometimes what someone needs is distance from the pain.
Azazel:
As for Hizbullah: in what other parts of the border has Hizbulah carried out attacks against the IDF besides the Cheeba farms? The most i have heard off is anti-aircraft shells falling unto Israel that were fired up in the air by Hizbullah, as a ***-for tat act aftre Israeli air incursions into Southern Lebanon.
As for the water issue: Last time I heard, haven't the last few yeras been one of geenral 'drought' in the region, with israel itself having to place strict limits on water use due to shortages? What effect has damage to geenral Palestinian infrastructure had to due with less efficient use of water, what effect does greater population have, and what effects have the general political and economic outcomes of the current violence had on the ammount Plaestinians get? All of these would be issues to consider as far as water use goes. |
hi ,
since when is an 120 mm mortar used as AA , .......
the IAF doesnt go there unless two acts of violence happend , ...... we at least respect the nation of libanon , we respect their borders , they cant even control it , ......
have a nice day
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13-12-2002 23:53
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