01-12-2002 12:36									#31
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Odin is really well-informed. ( Sharon=orthodox. )

	01-12-2002 23:22									#32
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quote: its easy to see why the only people who support Israel in the territories get lynched regularly...

I thought it was because the Palestinain Authority allows for armed terrorist goons on the streets.

	01-12-2002 23:23									#33
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Odin, I'm not sure what's your point. If to go by the instinct that you were serious, you just made a fool of yourself.

	01-12-2002 23:31									#34
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quote: They'd get the state they want much faster then by killing scores of civilians....

doubtful. for one, the Likud party made the pledge never to allow the creation of a Palestinian state, no matter what the situation is (even if all violence stopped). And if the Pals would stop their violence now, the Israelis would assume it's because of Sharons/Likuds actions, and that party will become even more popular.

	01-12-2002 23:45									#35
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Odin, actually thinking about what you said, sometimes during the occupation periods (ie, when IDF is inside the town and in control) IDF does schedule closures if it has info about future protests.

I believe it's more because each such protest has a potencial of evolving into a violent one, which the IDF doesn't want, when it's in the city.

They can have tons of peacefull marches in Gaza, for instance, where IDF is not in control of the streets.

Yet, the only marches are of Hamas, Jihad and Fatah people, shooting automatic rifles into the air, chanting "death to Israel".

	01-12-2002 23:50									#36
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quote: And if the Pals would stop their violence now, the Israelis would assume it's because of Sharons/Likuds actions, and that party will become even more popular.

You're both underestimating our wit and making uneducated predictions.

If the intifada stopped in the last few months, 70% that Labour with Mitzna would have won these elections.

Israelis choose governments that suit their short term goals.

Note that even though Nethanyahu seemed to have reduced terror and minimize demands by the Palestinians, Israelis voted in Barak, knowing he's going to make a very generous offer.

	01-12-2002 23:53									#37
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quote: the Likud party made the pledge never to allow the creation of a Palestinian state, no matter what the situation is

don't make me laugh.

it was the most pathetic show of public relations to win votes from the far right and show inner party support for Nethanyahu.

Most likud members didn't want to make such a commitment. And they punished Nethanyahu (who demanded this vote) as he plunged over 30% in the poles the next day.

	01-12-2002 23:56									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Eli IF tommorow the Palestinian people peacably protested in the street+did so for month... and continued with non-violent protests for a year or two, they would've gotten a state in most of the 1967 borders. The Israeli public opinion supports an eventual Palestinian state and the removal of settlements.

If Arafat had wanted peace with most of the '67 borders he could have had it two years ago. He choice not to though. What does that say about Arafat's goals?

	01-12-2002 23:59									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger It's hard to have security without peace.

It's hard to have peace without security.

	02-12-2002 00:41									#40
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quote: Most likud members didn't want to make such a commitment.

I believe it passed, did it not?

	02-12-2002 00:43									#41
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I got one ting to say: If Arafat adopted the ways of Gandhi, I would win the lottery. Not going to happen.

	02-12-2002 01:06									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin If Arafat had wanted peace with most of the '67 borders he could have had it two years ago. He choice not to though. What does that say about Arafat's goals?

Correction, he could have had it in '67.

Now, what does this say about Arafat's goals.

	02-12-2002 01:51									#43
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Gandhi was all good and great, still the nation split into a muslim and hindu side, with violence on both sides till this very day. Sure he got his independence, but not an end to violence.

	02-12-2002 02:06									#44
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Of course, if he'd use violence, all would be great now.

	02-12-2002 02:16									#45
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probably not.

but the moral of the Ghandi story is: non-violence isn't the sole answer either. sadly. it appears people are too fond of violence and revenge.

	02-12-2002 02:22									#46
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if the palestinians would fight hard for their freedom they may achieve it.

the israelian terrorists would kill innocents no mather what happens.

	02-12-2002 02:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Viking Berserk if the palestinians would fight hard for their freedom they may achieve it. the israelian terrorists

	02-12-2002 03:30									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus Gandhi was all good and great, still the nation split into a muslim and hindu side, with violence on both sides till this very day. Sure he got his independence, but not an end to violence.

Saint Marcus, I never thought of Indian independence in this light. Viewed from the perspective of "non violence," the split between Muslim and Hindu India was a complete failure. I would even question whether it would be possible to for two countries to live in peace, side by side, if the Kashmir situation were resolved.

	02-12-2002 05:59									#49
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Oh look, the stupid Vikings agree with each other!

	02-12-2002 18:59									#50
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quote: Saint Marcus, I never thought of Indian independence in this light. Viewed from the perspective of "non violence," the split between Muslim and Hindu India was a complete failure. I would even question whether it would be possible to for two countries to live in peace, side by side, if the Kashmir situation were resolved.

I don't know if there was a sollution for that problem, but I do know Ghandi's ways weren't the answer. He did gain independence for India (though I'm sure that would have happened anyway, violent or non violent), but he did not end the violence. And still, to this very day the two sides are at eachother's throat.

Say Arafat did the same as Ghandi, and say he's just as succesful, then Palestine may have been independent, but hostilities wouldn't have ceased.

	02-12-2002 19:15									#51
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quote: I don't know if there was a sollution for that problem, but I do know Ghandi's ways weren't the answer. He did gain independence for India (though I'm sure that would have happened anyway, violent or non violent), but he did not end the violence. And still, to this very day the two sides are at eachother's throat. Say Arafat did the same as Ghandi, and say he's just as succesful, then Palestine may have been independent, but hostilities wouldn't have ceased.

false example. Palestinians want to be independent from Israel.
Indians wanted to be independent from Britain, not from the muslims.

The non-violent approach created a state for the Indians.

this is another weird quote:

quote: but the moral of the Ghandi story is: non-violence isn't the sole answer either. sadly. it appears people are too fond of violence and revenge.

how would violence against the Brits prevent the splitting of the country into it's muslim and hindu components?

	02-12-2002 19:24									#52
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Does anyone have any information as to why the Mulsims refused to be part of a democratic, sectarian India?

	02-12-2002 19:54									#53
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the Muslims didn't believe there would be a free, democratic, sectarian India. They feared the Muslim minority would be oppressed by a Hindu mayority.

	02-12-2002 20:00									#54
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quote: The non-violent approach created a state for the Indians.

Two states. With frequent bursts of violence. It wasn't what Ghandi wanted.

quote: false example. Palestinians want to be independent from Israel.

what about the Palestinians in Israel proper? Or the Jews in Palestine? If the country gets split in two, there would be minorities in both nations. Also, the status of Jerusalem would be heavily contested. It's very much the same between India and Pakistan, with their minorities and the status of Kashmer.

Non violence by Arafat may have helped in creating a free Palestine, but it wouldn't end the violence. Like in India, fighting between the various minorities against the majority would still take place. Also, there would most likely still be violence and tension in Jerusalem, since both sides still claim it. Furthermore, certain Muslims groups have sworn to conquer all of Israel.

Non violence by Arafat, and for a while by the people, may certainly have helped the Palestinian cause. However, the non violence it would be silence before the storm, and within a few years violence would resume, an independent Palestinian state or not.

	02-12-2002 20:39									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Saint Marcus the Muslims didn't believe there would be a free, democratic, sectarian India. They feared the Muslim minority would be oppressed by a Hindu mayority.

I assume the Indian government follows the British parliamentary system. Majority rules. In a Hindu India, this means that Hindu's would rule. I can see how this would be unacceptable per se to a religious minority.

Had they installed a Federal system with a constitution patterned on the US constitution that could not be amended without the consent of the Muslim states, the right to free exercise of religion would have been protected.

	02-12-2002 20:51									#56
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India is actually a cross between parlimentary and fedral systems. However whicever system you chose tehre was going to be religious violence

	02-12-2002 20:52									#57
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As soom as they realised the british would grant them independence they started on each other

	02-12-2002 21:03									#58
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quote: I assume the Indian government follows the British parliamentary system. Majority rules. In a Hindu India, this means that Hindu's would rule. I can see how this would be unacceptable per se to a religious minority. Had they installed a Federal system with a constitution patterned on the US constitution that could not be amended without the consent of the Muslim states, the right to free exercise of religion would have been protected.

No, it wasn't that. The Muslims didn't fear a democratic state with a Hindu mayority, they feared an Apartheid state with a Hindu mayority. They simply didn't believe an independent India would be a free and fair democracy, with the same rights for Muslims and Hindus alike. And a constitutions guaranteeing the rights of everyone would be nice and well, but in a fledling democracy in a third world culture, the possibility of a coup is ever present. The Muslims feared they would trade in a British oppressor for a Hindu oppressor.

	02-12-2002 23:04									#59
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I'm sure Ghandi and MLK Jr would be spinning in their graves right now if they could see their political movements being used to attack oppressed people around the world. They were incredibly rare leaders with revolutionary ideas. It is certainly not a simple thing to tell people who are routinely being oppressed and have been for a long time(no matter what the reason this is the fact) that the answer is to turn the other cheek.

The peace movement in India only lasted long enough to get the British out, and in the states it had already begun to falter before MLK died, to be drowned out by the Black Power movements and the occasional riot. In Ireland I seem to remember someone attempting it with limited success.

The idea that palestinians would have peace tomorrow if the violence ended is as dreamy as the idea that violence would stop the day the occupation ended. For a peace movement to work the people need to see positive effects quickly or they will become disillusioned. Also, if there are people in the settlement communities, orthodox communities, IDF, Mossad or extremist arab groups who wouldn't want to see such a movement succeed, which I believe there are, it would be too vulnerable to them. Gunmen can be placed within demonstrations or it can simply be claimed that they were there. Strong leaders, which I believe such a movement would have to rely on, would also be vulnerable targets. Its just not realistic.

	02-12-2002 23:37									#60
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quote: I believe it passed, did it not?

Yes they did, because they can't admit otherwise.

But they didn't want to state this statement.

A poll taken among likkud members showed that 85% of them think that the conflict would eventaully end with the creation of a Palestinian state (this even though they dislike the idea).

They aren't fools.