29-11-2002 06:46									#1
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I was wondering if anyone has found an effective way of managing the cultivation of wonders in rival civs (and then of course taking over their cities).

Example...
(early game)
I'm playing the Chinese in regent level... my neighbours are the Americans to the north, germans to the southE and the Babylonians to the SouthW on my continent. I can easily build an army and kill of all these guys - taking 3-4 turns (each) to capture the 10-15 cities that each one has. However my preference is to let their cities grow (and hopefully build some wonders) and then wipe them out....thereby bagging some free wonders. Of course this needs to be managed carefully else they'll be too powerful for me to overcome.

What AI Civs have the greatest tendency to build early wonders? Is it better to kill off the militaristic or expansionist ones first?

Any ideas..... or experiences with this kind of thing?

Cheers,
Shan

	29-11-2002 06:54									#2
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When there are some nice Wonders to build (eg. Pyramids/GL), I often attack a neighbour civ which has a UU in this time, take over some smaller cities, and let them build these Wonders with their GA's help. It has often proved to be an effective way of getting Wonders pretty cheap.

	29-11-2002 07:12									#3
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Any time you get a good wonder tech (Masonry, Monarchy), trade or gift it to all your neighbors. This improves the odds they will build one.

	03-12-2002 00:10									#4
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Basically:

Every AI seems to want to build the Pyraimds. Civs with grow often may especally value it.

Civs with build culture often generally want to build as many wonders as possible.

Civs with build happiness often generally want to build as many happiness improving wonders as possible.

It's actually more interesting which wonders are lower in the AI list for builders.

In the Ancient Era, the wonders a human are most likely to succeed in building on Emperor (without storing shields via palace) are Collosus & the Great Light House.
The main reason for this is that only coastal cities can build either one.

	03-12-2002 03:24									#5
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Give the Babs masonry and then pick a fight (archer rush). Make sure you lose to a bowman right before you're ready for peace. Hopefully you can get tech & gold out of them, and then they will build the Pyramids with their pumped-up GA production.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 03:37									#6
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The same tactic would work better against the Greeks. (3 defensive unit. so you'll lose quicker.)

	03-12-2002 04:02									#7
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I think the reason Arrian chose the Babylonians is because their UU sucks. You don't want to mess with a good UU like the hoplite.

	03-12-2002 04:10									#8
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And you want to trigger their GA towards the end of the war so they focus on building the wonder (and not more units).

Catt

	03-12-2002 04:15									#9
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It is a good strategy. But be aware that captured wonders do not generate culture. For a war against the Babs, make sure you can end the war, then trigger their GA, not the opposite.

--Kon--

	03-12-2002 21:21									#10
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I chose the Babs because I didn't see the Greeks listed, actually.

quote: I'm playing the Chinese in regent level... my neighbours are the Americans to the north, germans to the southE and the Babylonians to the SouthW on my continent.

They are the only neighbor listed with an ancient UU, and are therefore the only option. Plus, bowmen aren't overwhelming (though they can be a real pain). Fight, do some damage, get them ready to make peace, and then lose to a bowman (easier said than done, of course). Make peace, and hope for the Pyramids.

-Arrian

	03-12-2002 22:46									#11
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Exactly. It's when you want to lose that your Warrior or Spearman stomps on his Bowman.

	03-12-2002 23:08									#12
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Captured wonders do generate culture but only from the date you take them with regard to the cumulative cultural effect throughout a game. In short it starts from zero again.

	04-12-2002 00:40									#13
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Captured wonders do generate culture but only from the date you take them with regard to the cumulative cultural effect throughout a game. In short it starts from zero again.

No, they won't ever generate culture for any but the civ that builds them (but I'm a bit lost on why the issue of culture from captured wonders ever creeped into this thread in the first place).

Catt

	04-12-2002 05:16									#14
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Sorry Catt but I think your wrong, I was sure when I posted earlier but as a safeguard Ive checked the manual and civilopedia and there is no mention of you not getting culture from captured wonders. There is no specific mention that you do get culture either but it clearly states in the manual that if you capture a GW then you get its benefits and the main benefits of wonders is there cultural value per turn.

Now then in my current game I'm getting culture per turn from captured wonders, but nowhere near the value it was giving to its original owners. In the concepts section of civilopedia under culture it says that cuture generating structures value doubles after youve had them built for a thousand years.

I cannot find any reference in the manual or pedia that would back up your posistion and I'm playing 1.29 civ 3 so unless PTW has changed this I would say I was right in the first place.

	04-12-2002 05:20									#15
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Sorry, but Catt is right. This is old.

	04-12-2002 05:32									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Catt (but I'm a bit lost on why the issue of culture from captured wonders ever creeped into this thread in the first place). Catt

I brought this up because if you want to go for a cultural victory, capturing wonders is not the way to go...

--Kon--

	04-12-2002 05:42									#17
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unfortunately, catt is right, sorry circus. I only discovered this when I noticed that my captured aztec city (with sun tzu and js bach) has no little musical notes next to the wonders. a bummer indeed, but true nonetheless.

lateralis

	04-12-2002 06:17									#18
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus Sorry Catt but I think your wrong, I was sure when I posted earlier but as a safeguard Ive checked the manual and civilopedia and there is no mention of you not getting culture from captured wonders. There is no specific mention that you do get culture either but it clearly states in the manual that if you capture a GW then you get its benefits and the main benefits of wonders is there cultural value per turn.

Well, some posters might disagree with the view that the main benefit of wonders is the culture -- I myself favor the maintainence-free granaries and barracks, the free tech through Education, the half-cost upgrades, the extra content faces, etc. more than the culture (although the eventual 12 culture points from the Great Library is appreciated).

But seriously, don't rely on the manual as a solid reference point; it has too many errors to trump actual game observations as to how gameplay works. The civilopedia is better, but not perfect.

quote: Now then in my current game I'm getting culture per turn from captured wonders, but nowhere near the value it was giving to its original owners. In the concepts section of civilopedia under culture it says that cuture generating structures value doubles after youve had them built for a thousand years.

What makes you think you're getting culture from captured wonders? The easiest check is to look in the city view screen and see if there are little musical notes next to the improvement in the city improvements window in the lower right. There is a lot of conflicting information out on the forum boards, and it always bears checking for yourself.

By way of example, I've posted a screenshot below. It is from PTW, but only because I now have no vanilla Civ 3 saves (trust me, the culture from wonders wasn't changed from Civ 3 to PTW). In this all random game, I, the Indians, destroyed the Japanese in a pair of wars. In the process, I captured the first Japanese capitol, Kyoto. The Japanese had thoughtfully built the Oracle for me. More than a thousand years have passed since I conquered Kyoto -- you can see that my temple (more than 1,000 years old) is producing 4 culture per turn, but my library (less than 1,000 years old) is only producing 3 culture per turn. The Hoover Dam, just recently built, is producing its 2 culture per turn, but the Oracle (built by the Japanese) is not producing culture.

Since you clearly cannot capture cultural improvements such as temples, wouldn't this screenshot imply that either (1) I built the Oracle myself, and it should therefore be producing culture, (2) I captured the Oracle more than 1,000 years ago, but it still isn't producing culture for me, or (3) I've doctored the screenshot in some way for some purpose ?

I've been wrong plenty of times, but not in this particular instance.

Catt

	04-12-2002 06:20									#19
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quote: Originally posted by lateralis unfortunately, catt is right, sorry circus.

What do you mean "unfortunately, catt is right"

just kidding

I actually prefer to be wrong because that means I've learned something new.

Catt

	04-12-2002 06:51									#20
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To get the thread back on topic . . .

quote: Originally posted by Mazarin When there are some nice Wonders to build (eg. Pyramids/GL), I often attack a neighbour civ which has a UU in this time, take over some smaller cities, and let them build these Wonders with their GA's help. It has often proved to be an effective way of getting Wonders pretty cheap.

This adivce, combined with Arrian's advice to try to manage the enemy's GA kick-off to occur at the end of a short war strikes me as a pretty solid effort at cultivating nearby wonders.

Catt

	05-12-2002 05:13									#21
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See I told you there was no culture from captured wonders didnt you

Yes the Catt was right though I think its bad that both the manual and the civilopedia do not point to this fact.

Thanks Catt for taking the time to show me the error of my ways your wisdom shines like a beacon to us all.

	05-12-2002 09:48									#22
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quote: Originally posted by ChrisiusMaximus . . . I think its bad that both the manual and the civilopedia do not point to this fact.

You'll find that neither the manual nor the civilopedia point you to numerous important game facts. As an additional example, I have never seen mention of the halved cultural production during war-time mobilization, but it's there! And my personal pet peeve is the description of the various power plants ("increases factory output by XX%" -- what does that mean? since factories mean 50% additional shield production, are power plants an additional 50% on base shields or "50% of the factory's 50% bonus?" -- only close attention to the city screen gives the answer).

Apolyton's forums are actually the best source of game information (but there's a bit of misinformation out there so you have to verify for yourself claims that a poster might make). CFC's forums are helpful as well.

Catt

	05-12-2002 10:14									#23
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I find that the AI who builds the Pyramids tends to be the one who is on the best terrain around their capitol. Industrious gives civs a bit of an edge, as they can improve their terrain faster, and have the tech from the start.

Purposely starting a GA for your neighbor is a good idea. They usually won't switch from a wonder once they start building it, so hit them just after they start it.

	05-12-2002 13:08									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Catt What do you mean "unfortunately, catt is right" just kidding I actually prefer to be wrong because that means I've learned something new. Catt

i meant "unfortunatly" as in "unfortunatly I'm not getting umpteen cultural notes from all those captured wonders". I was in no way implying that "unfortunaly, catt seems to have a corner on the factual representations of the fabulous game of civ"

I really just wanted to ride your coattails

"look everyone, lateralis was right too!!!"





:crickets:





oh, no one cares

I'm really tired...

lateralis