30-04-2000 00:13									#1
	Nerve Stapling Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Does anyone here use nerve stapling? I never do, but I've been curious about playing differently than I normally do. Can anyone testify as to the use of nerve stapling within an overall strategy? It seems like it might be a really good thing for a warlike faction to do, to cut down on the cost of city improvements temporarily.

	30-04-2000 02:15									#2
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

They say that nerve stapling hurts you in the long run. The reason is that once you start you can't stop; kind of like picking at a sore. Occasionally it might be usefull to do it before you get trade income, but that's when it gets hard to stop. Usually I just start stapling everyone who gets out of line. And then I can never go back to trade income again.

Some people say that nerve stapling will cause ecodamage eventually. I have never reached that limit however, and the ecodamage formula that I saw did not include minor attrocities.

This is where is gets tough. The other factions will definitly unite against you for two reasons. One, they get no trade from you. Two, you will be a lot bigger than them from the nerve stapling.

Nerve stapling might work best in single play. You may be able to use it when playing against one human. Against two or more humans you are asking for quite a challenge. Eventually they should easily beat you down.

	30-04-2000 03:42									#3
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

A bunch of late night observations:

1) Nerve-stapling can have some short term effect if you need to build something very quickly and can't afford any docs. Typical things are SPs at the beginning, or newly aquired bases which aren't fully assimilated and where you need a few turns to build rec commons.

2) If you are going for Planetary Leader and nerve staple foreign cities, the 'hurt' factions won't accept you and will declare war on you, even if you get enough votes. Oh well!

3) Adam, are you sure that minor atrocities won't do any eco damage? I know the datalinks say so...but I know for a fact that Chiron doesn't like nervegas. In the Sparta vs. PK scenario, I let Santiago pump out masses of X-Impact-rovers to gas Lal of the planet. Guess what? A few turns later, Chiron blew me of the planet. Every single base 'produced' 5-10 worms per turn, even though I was very low-level industry. Twenty years later, the whole planet had sunk below the surface, nothing remained.

I think I experienced ecodamage as a result of stapling before, but I am not entirely sure.

4) With newer patches, the effect of nerve-stapling decrease over time. Eventually, your citizens will get immune. Hopefully, you have wiped all enemies off by then.

5) In general, for warmongers, I think it's a good deal. You don't get any trade from subs, though. Also, you cannot submit any faction that you commited atrocities against (nervestapling a conquered city from them counts as such). They will always fight you to death. Too bad I suck at playing warmongers.
-joer.

[This message has been edited by joer (edited April 29, 2000).]

	30-04-2000 04:41									#4
	Support Apolyton

joer,

I have stapled probably 100 times with no reprocussions.

	30-04-2000 11:00									#5
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Adam Smith: Now that is odd.

I have just tried it out myself (better to be safe than sorry when using it in a real game). Nerve-stapled about 10 cities of mine in a game I currently playing.
The Eco damage of every city jumped from 0 or near zero (single digit) to at least 30, sometimes even over 100. Instantly.
Pressed 'end turn' once, worms popping up everywhere.
One important factor: I have not allowed atrocities via Council (I know that can be a factor).
-joer, still wondering after all these years...

	30-04-2000 13:14									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

joer, what version, and what were the other factors?

	30-04-2000 14:23									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I have used nervegas in every fight a whole game an never saw any connection to the cries of planet
But after shooting 6 singularity busters in the end the sea levels rose ALOT

	30-04-2000 15:43									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Adam Smith: I used AXT patch 2 (the latest) and ACT path 4.
Transcend level, map of planet.
Late 2100's.
Playing PK, current SE settings:
Demo/Planned/Knowledge. Okay-ish integrity, but not all that great.

I have used a bit of nervegas before, but not much. Chiron got back on me with a few worms, but it's been some time. By now, planet has forgiven me again and my eco damage was well kept in check (with lots of forest, tree farms, Centauri gardens, etc).

Humm...can't think of anything else right now. What else could be a factor?

I have read from other people on this forum that nervegas on human factions without repealed UN charter does cause ecodamage -- you just get away for free by gasing Boogers. I experienced the same with excessive genetic warfare (on Thinker level, tho). I think it'd make sense if all mminor 'unallowed' atrocities get punished by planet.

Any more input as to why it happens to some and not to others?
-joer.


[This message has been edited by joer (edited April 30, 2000).]

	30-04-2000 22:55									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, the formula is very complicated. Stapling is suppose to be a minor attrocity, and therefor you are not suppose to get ecodamage and I have not, but you might have had more mineral production and terraforming enhancements than me and the formula counts a large number of staples as a major attrocity.

	01-05-2000 00:35									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Actually, it seems like nerve stapling might be better in multiplayer than in single player, because human opponents probably won't care much about your "atrocities", unless they're overly into role-playing.

Also, in terms of eco-damage, do the Progenitor factions generate eco-damage when they nerve staple? Is it considered an atrocity, even by the AI?