08-12-2002 11:29									#31
	Golden Age Impact Study Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

A Golden Age (GA) is triggered when the UU (Numidian Mercenary in our case) is victorious in a battle, or if we build Great Wonders that match both of our civilization strengths (commercial and industrious).

Here is a list of relevant wonders, courtesy of Vondrack:

Commercial Wonders: Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Magellan's Voyage, Smith's Trading Company, United Nations

Industrious Wonders: Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Hoover Dam, Manhattan Project, Pyramids,

We need one from each group to trigger a GA. Or, the Internet triggers a GA for anyone who builds it and didn't have one before.

The GA lasts for 20 turns, and it means that every laborer in the city that is producing at least 1 shield and/or commerce will produce an extra shield and/or commerce.

Therefore the GA has a theoretical maximum impact in a situation where every laborer produces precisely 1 shield and 1 commerce, as in this case the GA doubles our productivity and income.

This theoretical maximum is hard to reach because a (maybe surprisingly large) number of tiles produces at least two shield and/or commerce. For example:

- mined bonus grassland
- mined cattle
- any tile with a road and next to a river
- any tile with a road and luxuries
- forrest
- hill/mountain with gold
- coast
- lake

The first three of the above list is already next to our capital and we are likely to meet the others as well. In general, the least developed these tiles are the bigger (relative) impact the GA has.

Note however that many of the above mentioned tiles produce exactly 2 shield and/or gold. This is very significant, because in Despotism, every tile that produces more than two food, shield, or commerce produces one less instead. This means that the effect of the GA is zero on tiles producing 2 shield and/or gold while we are in Despotism. It is hard to reach a final conclusion without knowing the map, but I suspect that this will be the single most important factor in deciding when we don't want a GA: while we are in Despotism.

Another interesting aspect of GA is that food production doesn't change. This means that the practical effect of a GA in the early phase, where the main objective is usually to produce settlers and workers for expansion and tile improvements (see also: jungle) is rather questionable.

Furthermore it appears to be useful to have something that we can actually build with those extra shields (gold is not likely to be a problem as we can accumulate it in our treasury). The obvious answer to this problem is to build a bunch of Numidian Mercenaries during the GA. I suspect however that this would result in an outragous waste of shields -- picture a city producing 7, 9 or God forbid 13 shields as it builds the 30 shield unit. Consequently I feel that we must ensure that we have the necessary tech for the "next generation" of city improvements that could suck up all those extra shields while producing something enduring -- Construction (Aqueduct), Currency (Marketplace), and Literature (Library) comes to mind. Scheduling a Great Wonder or two for this period would be also nice.

Finally, the shields and gold induced by the GA are not immune to corruption, therefore the relative effect of the GA decreases with the size of Legoland. Unfortunately I can't provide a formula for calculating corruption, hence the only thing I can say in this regard that it is probably not a good idea to trigger a GA just before we start to build our Forbidden Palace.

Based on the above, one possible strategy regarding triggering our Golden Age is this:

- research The Republic and Literature
- finish the first wave of colonization
- change goverment to Republic
- trigger the GA
- use the extra shields to build library in every city and start the Great Library in the best production city which is also next to sea
- research Map Making and/or Monarchy so that we can switch from the Great Library to the Great Lighthouse or the Hanging Gardens if necessary
- alternative solution for a second wonder is (if this is not against the rules) to start building a Palace in some city during the GA and then switch to the wonder when the appropriate tech is available. We might be able to get Sun Tzu's Art of War this way, even though I am not certain that we really need it.

Last edited by delmar on 09-12-2002 at 20:00

	08-12-2002 11:39									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Some info : [..]

Spiffor, what do we know about the map settings, barbarians and difficulty?

	08-12-2002 12:26									#33
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quote: Originally posted by delmar what do we know about the map settings, barbarians and difficulty?

Map settings mostly random (detailed info to be found somewhere in the public PtWDG forum, can't remember where exactly), barbarians roaming, difficulty Regent. No AIs.

	08-12-2002 21:55									#34
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Map settings mostly random (detailed info to be found somewhere in the public PtWDG forum, can't remember where exactly), barbarians roaming, difficulty Regent. No AIs.

Thanks. Does "mostly" mean "all" in this context? Specifically, do we know the map style (Pangea, Continents, Archipelago)?

	08-12-2002 22:07									#35
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Size : standard
Landmass : random
Temperature : normal
Climate : normal
Age : random
I thought the Barbs were random, but I might have missed an element.

	09-12-2002 04:31									#36
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Welcome, delmar. Good to see more active members joining.

Ideally, I'd say we should have our GA in the middle ages; there are a lot of great (both descriptively and literally ) wonders then, and that's when the last basic city improvements (like Cathedrals) come into play. Since we're neither scientific nor religious, we'll definitely need a GA's shield boost to match other Civ's infrastructure.

I don't think palace shieldholding is against the rules; I haven't seen anything about it, but I joined after a lot of the game's layout was already set up.

	09-12-2002 06:02									#37
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quote: Originally posted by delmar 4.) How do we avoid a suicide attack aimed at triggering a Golden Age for us in the very early years (where the Golden Age is assumed to be least useful)?

Hardly. If someone else decides to trigger the GA for us, he probably will. The only possible countermeasure is having "police force" (archers or chariots) that will kill invaders before they get to our Mercs. As for the GA timing, I would say that the best time is early medieval, where there are lots of improvements to build, fine GWs... but we could call ourselves lucky if we are actually free to time our GA...

Just BTW... I thought I would list wonders that may trigger our GA, too. As we are commercial & industrious, the following wonders matter (we'd need one commercial and one industrious wonder):

Commercial Wonders: Colossus, Great Lighthouse, Magellan's Voyage, Smith's Trading Company, United Nations
Industrious: Great Wall, Hanging Gardens, Hoover Dam, Manhattan Project, Pyramids,

and Internet, of course...

quote: Originally posted by delmar 5.) Before I was granted citizenship to Legoland, I was reading the public forums of the teams. My impression on the GoW team was that they started out as a real bully, but then they realized that making everybody their enemy too early is not a good strategy. Therefore I find it likely that they are sincerely looking for allies. Furthermore I do think that Legoland is a good match for GoW, in fact I would have suggested to initiate such a cooperation with GoW myself.

In my tech-trade analysis earlier in the post, I proposed trading our Alphabet for their Warrior Code, if possible. Getting Warrior Code would help us greatly (allowing archers to be built, which could repel intruders just as well as Mercs, while being cheaper and not triggering our GA) and GoW might be happy to learn Literature (a tech that is significantly more costly to research than WC).

quote: Originally posted by delmar 6.) While I certainly appreciate the opportunity, Your Highness , that I can offer my opinion on Foreign Affairs, I would find it useful to have a thread where only You could post, so that everyone is clear on what is the official opinion of the Department of Foreign Affairs and what is just discussion among ordinary citizens. This thread, IMHO, falls into the second category.

Once we actually meet other civs, that may be a good idea. Currently, this thread is all we need, I believe.

quote: Originally posted by delmar Therefore I would suggest three things: 1.) Don't give our map to anyone (not even the AI, if we have any). 2.) Don't allow foreign units within our territory (maybe warn them before attacking but possibly just make clear early enough that we don't tolerate intrusions and then attack without warning). 3.) Try to get maps from other Civs.

1) is obvious, but 3) is rather unlikely, exactly because others will have the same 1) as we do. As for intrusions, I believe that we will handle it case by case through diplomatic channels, sometimes warning, sometimes threatening, sometimes negotiating free way... as we see fit.

	09-12-2002 11:05									#38
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As I stated, I wouldn't really want to embroil us with any of GoW's "deals," but that doesn't mean we can't cooperate with them otherwise. They will be wanting tech, and we can probably provide it. However, we must be wary that they just don't decide to come in and take it, as it were.

Of course, this all assumes we are anywhere near them at all...

	09-12-2002 19:50									#39
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack Hardly. If someone else decides to trigger the GA for us, he probably will. The only possible countermeasure is having "police force" (archers or chariots) that will kill invaders before they get to our Mercs.

"Only possible"? I gave two other suggestions above...

quote: As for the GA timing, I would say that the best time is early medieval, where there are lots of improvements to build, fine GWs...

Can you be a bit more specific? I think the only improvement is the Cathedral, which I consider rather useless, and the only fine GW is Leonardo's. I find the value of the other two "Great" Wonders (Sun Tzu's and Sistine Chapel) rather questionable. Well, I see another great opportunity for a study coming up: "The importance of city improvements and Great Wonders"

quote: but we could call ourselves lucky if we are actually free to time our GA...

Against the AI, yes. Against 6 human teams, I am not so sure. We already have an offer which would ensure this. I can easily imagine that other teams would be willing to help us, too. I would say this is not a question of luck, it is a question of price. And clever foreign politics.

quote: Just BTW... I thought I would list wonders that may trigger our GA, too.

Excellent idea, I will add this to the study above.

	09-12-2002 20:43									#40
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quote: Originally posted by delmar "Only possible"? I gave two other suggestions above...

quote: Originally posted by delmar Then here is one: don't build any. Before you ban me from Legoland forever for infinit stupidity , let me tell you that I am not suggesting that we shouldn't build any Mercs, period. It is just an idea that could be considered, modified, constrained, etc. And here is another one: play down the importance of a golden age. The Golden Age assurance offered by the GoW team is an excellent opportunity to do this. Maybe we should pretend we don't care when/if we have a golden age.

Briefly: I do not consider the first idea reasonable at all. While it would really prevent others from triggering our Golden Ages, it would make it very likely that another civ triggers our Dark Ages. Defending with warriors, archers, swordsmen, chariots, and horsemen is just too risky.

Dunno how the second idea helps preventing others from triggering our GA. That would help us trigger our GA, not the other way round. If another team decides they go to war against us and they want to have us our GA early, we will have to put up with the fact we will have our GA early (unless we are able to wipe out invaders with non-Merc forces assigned to guard open terrain). We would have to defend with the best units we'd have at our disposal. If they get close enough to attack our Merc... Golden Ages, here they come.

quote: Originally posted by delmar Can you be a bit more specific? I think the only improvement is the Cathedral, which I consider rather useless, and the only fine GW is Leonardo's. I find the value of the other two "Great" Wonders (Sun Tzu's and Sistine Chapel) rather questionable. Well, I see another great opportunity for a study coming up: "The importance of city improvements and Great Wonders"

In early medieval, you hardly have all the late ancient improvements built. Marketplaces, Aqueducts, Libraries, Harbours, Colloseums or Cathedrals, strenghtening defenses in borderline cities... Grabbing any of the Leo, Sun Tzu & Sistine would be great. Not that they would necessarily fit our strategy. But we do not want others to build them. GW denial, if nothing else - we do not want any warmongers to have any one of them, and especially not any two of them at the same time. Accelerated research can help us gain the lead either in the Education branch or the Gundpowder branch, whatever may be better at that time.