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Kloreep
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of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:24
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I have two objectives in starting this thread: 1) to try to get into the workings of MP diplomacy (something with which I have no experience) and how the PTW Demogame will have quirks of its own, and 2) to set up some basic reactions toward teams, so that if we find a team to be our neighbor, we already know how we'd prefer to act.
MP diplomacy I have little insight into. It's obviously going to be quite different, but that's not very helpful.  Anyone who's actually played some Civ3 MP want to comment?
Here are some basic opinions about dealing with other teams. Note that these are all early game reactions (IE, if they're right next to us).
Lux Invicta: Seem to be warmongering advocates, but hard to pin down exactly where they are on the builder-warmonger spectrum. Treat with caution.
Gathering Storm: I don't trust this rush-advocating team farther than I can throw 'em. However, I don't think much else can be said before the game begins; I don't have a good handle on their leanings (and I doubt even they will, till they see the map).
RP Team: A friend in a warmongering world, and one we've promised not to attack till 1000 AD. Live in peace with them, and establish a trade connection ASAP to exchange luxes.
Glory of War: If we start next to them, I say RUSH RUSH RUSH in the ancient age! I don't trust them at all, and they've basically stated they'll be hitting their neighbors up for money. Strike while we have our UU and theirs is yet to come!
Vox Controlli: Don't really know what these guys are about (except for the "one voice" thing  ), but a lot of their discussion up till now has been public (they only got their forum recently). Does anyone who bothered to read their threads wish to comment?
Demogyptica: Don't know much about these guys. Another team to treat with caution.
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Sharpe
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Ontario
May 1999
time: 00:24
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The Civs of the other teams: (thought this was as good a place as any)
Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Industrious & Scientific
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Industrious & Religious
Role-Playing - Spain - Commercial & Religious
Glory of War - China - Industrious & Militaristic
Vox Controli - unknown, but Persia in the lead
Demogyptica - Arabs - Expansionist & Religious
Lux Invicta - Hard to say what strategy they will use - those traits can be used by warmongers to maintain a more balanced approach while concentrating on a military buildup though. They will be a real problem in the late middle ages due to their strong unique unit.
However, if they build up early until the late middle ages, they could rival us in building due to their traits.
Gathering Storm - They have a LOT of Civ 3 experienced players and clearly favor early rushing - and Egypt is perfect for that. Should be wary of them, however, they might be willing to ally with us if we meet them after we have our unique units in place.
Role-Playing - Seem friendly; however, if they are truly role-playing they will be militaristic (can't have much of a story with interesting events and characters if all they are doing is building city improvements and using workers )
Glory of War - Clearly aggressive, but by choosing China instead of a great early rusher like the Aztecs or Iroquois, they may be mindful of the need for other tactics if war fails. Do appear to be trying to bribe others, but we might be able to use that to our advantage.
Vox Controli - Will have to be aggressive early if they use Persia due to the usefulness of those Immortals. Treaties might be useless if they do go ahead with a one voice, no advisers dictatorship as style of play might vary greatly (like in succession games) depending on how often they change leaders.
Demogyptica - Another hard to figure out civ - they chose Egypt in their SP Democratic game (but then again so did we), which might indicate early rushing tactics. However, their choice of Arabia this time might indicate a desire to gain an early advantage in exploring the map. Only Gathering Storm will uncover the map nearly as fast as them. Being a non-Apolyton team, they might use that early advantage to be a map and contact broker and to try to form friendships with some of us. However, their religious trait and cheap unique unit will give them some flexibility in their tactics too.
My suggestion is that we might be best to adapt the tactics of England in the 1700 to 1800's by forming coalitions.
While we are working on developing our infrastructure - build a decent military (mostly defensive and speedy counter attack units) we should try to form friendly coalitions. I suspect that if an early rush attack is made that there might be early coalitions formed against it (if the defending civ isn't immediately overwhelmed of course), especially due to our relative inexperience with Civ 3 MP tactics. It is possible that we may end up with a 4 vs 3 civs coalition situation that frequently occured in those "Diplomatic" games from Civ 2.
With our emphasis on building, if we are not disturbed too much, we should be able to gain some advantages in city size, shield and commerce production and might be able to use money and trade goods as subsidies to our coalition partners.
Sorry for the long-winded post. Feel free to ignore or criticize.
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sharpe
The Civs of the other teams: (thought this was as good a place as any)
Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Industrious & Scientific
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Industrious & Religious
Role-Playing - Spain - Commercial & Religious
Glory of War - China - Industrious & Militaristic
Vox Controli - unknown, but Persia in the lead
Demogyptica - Arabs - Expansionist & Religious |
Nice post, Sharpe. 
I will add one more table, showing what techs other teams start with:
Lux Invicta - Ottomans - Bronze Working & Masonry
Gathering Storm - Egypt - Ceremonial Burial & Masonry
Role-Playing - Spain - Alphabet & Ceremonial Burial
Glory of War - China - Warrior Code & Masonry
Vox Controli - Bronze Working & Masonry
Demogyptica - Arabs - Pottery & Ceremonial Burial
we, Legoland - Cartaghe - Alphabet & Masonry
Sorted from least to most common (beaker costs in brackets):
1:
Warrior Code - Glory of War (30)
Pottery - Demogyptica (20)
2:
Alphabet - us, Role-players (50)
Bronze Working - Lux Invicta, Vox Controli (30)
3:
Ceremonial Burial - Gathering Storm, Role-Players, Demogyptica (20)
5:
Masonry - everybody, but Spain & Demogyptica (40)
Alphabet is a very valuable starting tech and will be - hopefully - in high demand, as it is on the road to the Great Library. But we should not hesitate to trade it for other techs, as it does not give any immediate military advantage and we are not the only ones to have it. The sooner we sell it to someone else, the better. OTOH, we can hardly hope for trading Masonry, as almost everybody has it...
Let's see:
1) Archer rush against us is possible/likely only if we start next to GoW only. Nobody else will be able to churn out archers much earlier than we start cranking Mercs. I assume that GoW will be unlikely to trade their Warrior Code early on, as it gives them an obvious edge over other teams.
2) Should we start next to Lux Invicta or Vox Controli, I suggest offering Masonry for the rest of unresearched Bronze Working, should they be willing to trade (maybe even throwing some moderate cash in). Masonry will be next to useless trade-wise very soon, which should be just enough to justify exchanging it for a partially researched tech. The sooner we get to BW, the better. Masonry would be an acceptable price for getting to Mercs few turns sooner.
3) Should we start next to Gathering Storm, I would lean toward offering them Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial plus loads of cash (dunno, how much exactly... at least 20-30 gold?), should they be willing to accept it. This may seem a bit foolish, but consider this: Roleplayers have been granted a preferred trading partner status, which means that we may have to trade Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial anyway... offering a fine deal to GoS may start a friendly relationship with them. If there is nothing they can extort us for, they may be more likely to pick a different target.
4) Role-Players. There is not much to consider here. We would be sort of bound to sell them Alphabet for Ceremonial Burial, hopefully making some cash, too. I would rather not meet them too early... Trading Alphabet for CB will hardly bring any relationship improvement... we would be better off trading it to GS.
5) Glory of War. Umm, this would be tough... Warrior Code is their starting exclusive, which gives them an edge. I would probably try offering Alphabet for Warrior Code. It would be such a lopsided deal (a 50-beaker tech for a 20-beaker tech) that they may even agree... the closer we will be to Bronze Working, the more likely they might be to trade (Archers would suck against Mercs anyway). I would even be willing to promise not to trade Warrior Code for a set period of time (like 10, 15, or 20 turns) to anyone else to make this deal. If they agree on such a deal, I suggest we take it - in case of a rush from another team, we would be able to counter-attack with cheap archers, saving our costly Mercs for rock-solid defense...
GoW is the only team posing a real early-game threat to us. Anything that will keep them at bay will be fine, IMHO.
6) Should we start next to Neu Demogyptica, I would suggest trading both of our techs for both of theirs ASAP. Considering the nominal research cost, we would be giving them a bit more, but Masonry will be very easy to get from other teams, while Pottery is their starting exclusive.
OK, that's just about all I can think of right now (you can consider that my campaign speech  for the post of Foreign Minister).
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vondrack
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Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2002
time: 06:24
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OK, I know I am kind of threadjacking this thread, but it seems to be a great place to start working on my foreign affairs agenda. As the provisional Foreign Minister of Legoland, I would like my ambassadors to report whether they contacted their partners in other teams and whether anything important has been arranged. I noticed some of them did so, but I have no easy to way to find out who contacted whom.
As there was no general consent regarding the rules for making diplomatic PMs semi-public, allowing for posting their content in the private team forums, I would kindly ask all our ambassadors to speak to their counterparts, possibly arranging for lifting the restriction for both parties.
Also, our ambassador to Gathering Storm (quantum_mechani? correct?) should find out if there are any more email addresses we should send our savegame to. Currently, we send it to notyoueither@hotmail.com only.
Last edited by vondrack on 04-12-2002 at 17:27
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ZargonX
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Space
Sep 2002
time: 00:24
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Ok, so here is the summary of the first diplomatic communications with GoW. These are paraphrases of what Panzer32 sent to me.
-The GoW is willing to work with us, for a price. They think that as builders, we will need a strong military ally. they have several services to offer:
-Mercenaries for Hire. If we wish to fight a war, but don't feel like doing it ourselves, they'll do it for us. Any captured cities would be handed over to us at the conclusion. Price varies.
-"Golden Age" insurance. They say that for the cost of 1 gold a turn, they will keep a warrior in reserve until we are ready to have a golden age triggered. They will sacrifice the warrior to our unit, and viola. Also, this would require a deposit of a tech or resources.
-They claim we can trust them in making deals, because they know that as a war-making civ, the first time they break a deal, no one will ever trust them again.
-I have permission to post the contents of his PMs unless otherwise specified.
So, there you have it. While they claim they are more than willing to sell their services to others, one has to wonder how long until they just start demanding "protection money." Plus, this makes them an even greater threat, because someone could just pay them off to go to war with us. We must definately be wary in our dealings with them, I feel.
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delmar
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Dear Vondrack,
I am a brand new citizen of Legoland and haven't had much chance to read all the the posts in this private forum. Therefore I apologize if I missed something and the following issues were discussed already:
1.) I am wondering based on what we think we know which group uses which tribe. I am especially doubtful about Gathering Storm being Egypt.
2.) On a related note, is it a fair statement that much of our Foreign Strategy (e.g. what tech we should trade to whom) is based on what we learnt on the public forum of other teams? If it is indeed like that, I would like our Department of Foreign Affairs to consider the possibility that other teams (especially Gathering Storm) uses their public forum for desinformation.
3.) On yet another related note, I would strongly recommend that our Department of Foreign Affairs adopt this techinque and get actively involved into spreading misleading information.
4.) How do we avoid a suicide attack aimed at triggering a Golden Age for us in the very early years (where the Golden Age is assumed to be least useful)? Do we have an analysis evaluating the usefulness of having a Golden Age at various stages?
5.) Before I was granted citizenship to Legoland, I was reading the public forums of the teams. My impression on the GoW team was that they started out as a real bully, but then they realized that making everybody their enemy too early is not a good strategy. Therefore I find it likely that they are sincerely looking for allies. Furthermore I do think that Legoland is a good match for GoW, in fact I would have suggested to initiate such a cooperation with GoW myself.
6.) While I certainly appreciate the opportunity, Your Highness  , that I can offer my opinion on Foreign Affairs, I would find it useful to have a thread where only You could post, so that everyone is clear on what is the official opinion of the Department of Foreign Affairs and what is just discussion among ordinary citizens. This thread, IMHO, falls into the second category.
Thanks for listening!
Delmar
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delmar
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quote:
Originally posted by ZargonX
-"Golden Age" insurance. They say that for the cost of 1 gold a turn, they will keep a warrior in reserve until we are ready to have a golden age triggered. They will sacrifice the warrior to our unit, and viola. Also, this would require a deposit of a tech or resources.
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I am not sure if this service is worth 1gpt. As I see it, triggering a Golden Age is not a problem for us, avoiding an early Golden Age is. If we managed to avoid an early Golden Age, then I would hope that we (being Builders) will ultimately trigger our Golden Age by building wonders.
Furthermore, how do we know that GoW is close enough to help us trigger our Golden Age whenever we want it? Just because of this issue alone, we shouldn't make this deal until we know where GoW Land is located.
Also, what does "deposit of a tech or resources" exactly mean? I hope it doesn't mean "give something to us now and we might give you something later on"?
Last edited by delmar on 07-12-2002 at 04:07
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delmar
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I think it would be very important to protect our world map. I am currently in an MP game (with notyoueither, btw), and I managed to keep about half of my territory, the biggest, most productive cities around my capital, a secret so far (we are around 1100AD). notyoueither also tried to do the same, he literally kills off any galley or scout approaching his boarders. Opponents seeing a big black patch in place of your country is a huge advantage. They don't know what resources you have, can't investigate your cities, can't plan for an attack.
Therefore I would suggest three things:
1.) Don't give our map to anyone (not even the AI, if we have any).
2.) Don't allow foreign units within our territory (maybe warn them before attacking but possibly just make clear early enough that we don't tolerate intrusions and then attack without warning).
3.) Try to get maps from other Civs.
Delmar
Last edited by delmar on 06-12-2002 at 22:17
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delmar
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack on the Master Build Poll thread
quote:
Originally posted by delmar
maybe you should go out and play on human weakness. Maybe you could publish a newsletter that reports how many and well placed Mercs we have all over the map (slightly exegarating numbers and strategic value, of course ). That might be worth more than 3 Merc/city.
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Like GoW did? Other teams would consider the info just as irrelevant as I consider GoW's fake pic. But if you feel like working on propaganda, feel free to do so. I just don't have time to. |
No, like Gathering Storm did and made you believe that they are playing Egypt. Or better.
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delmar
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quote:
Originally posted by vondrack
AFAIK, every PBEM game is being set up by a single person. |
That person doesn't need to play though. Anyway, important thing is we really know who is playing which tribe.
quote:
It definitely is worth implementing, but not through the public PtWDG forum. We will implement it when the time comes, using diplomatic channels/ambassadors. |
Sounds good.
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:24
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Some info :
All teams stated officially their preferences in this thread. To sum it up
Legoland = Carthage
Lux Invicta = Ottomans
Gathering Storm = Egypt
Glory of War = China
Neu Demogyptica = Arabia
Roleplay = Spain
Vox Controli = Persia
There are no AIs
This is the public and definitive choice of Civs. Any Civ not following can be considered cheating. The only way to do this would have been to have a "true" choice from the beginning, to PM NYE, and to get his agreement to change Civ without advising anyone... Very unlikely.
Obviously, other teams will use the public forum for disinformation, just as much as we'll do. The biggest example for now is the fake "one tile island" which hosts the Glory of war. Also, it is doubtful the roleplayers started near a river.
quote:
How do we avoid a suicide attack aimed at triggering a Golden Age for us in the very early years (where the Golden Age is assumed to be least useful)? Do we have an analysis evaluating the usefulness of having a Golden Age at various stages? |
No idea. I'd say we try to maintain peace with our neighbours : our UU is a big threat until the time knights are around, and going at war against us only to trigger our GA will be a costly strategy for anyone that attacks us. We risk being at war, but I think the risk of a rival team attacking us only to trigger our GA is near nil.
We don't have analyses for now. If you want to produce one, I'll be extremely happy to read it
quote:
Furthermore, how do we know that GoW is close enough to help us trigger our Golden Age whenever we want it? Just because of this issue alone, we shouldn't make this deal until we know where GoW Land is located. |
Absolutely. Anyways, we cannot give them gold per turn before we have contact with them, which can take some time.
quote:
1.) Don't give our map to anyone (not even the AI, if we have any).
2.) Don't allow foreign units within our territory (maybe warn them before attacking but possibly just make clear early enough that we don't tolerate intrusions and then attack without warning).
3.) Try to get maps from other Civs. |
1) Sure thing
2) We shouldn't be too gung ho. We should remain prudent before declaring war. Don't forget a rival Civ would have to trade its whole map to another Civ, and not only the chunk about us. Declaring war because people are scouting by us should be a question of circumstances, not a question of principles
3) Yes, but I highly doubt we could ever get maps, except in some very special cases.
I agree we should try to have a good relationship with the GoW : an alliance between builders and warmongers can be extremely powerful. However, we should never depend on them in any ways. If they are owerwhelmingly powerful (because we relied on them to be our force), they could grab our territory in no time.
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delmar
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
No idea. |
Then here is one: don't build any. Before you ban me from Legoland forever for infinit stupidity , let me tell you that I am not suggesting that we shouldn't build any Mercs, period. It is just an idea that could be considered, modified, constrained, etc.
And here is another one: play down the importance of a golden age. The Golden Age assurance offered by the GoW team is an excellent opportunity to do this. Maybe we should pretend we don't care when/if we have a golden age.
quote:
our UU is a big threat until the time knights are around, |
You sure about this? I agree that attacking our UU is close to suicide before knights (unless someone has Immortals, of course... hmm, what was the tribe of Vox Controli again?  ), but we being a threat... I don't know. What would you do if someone, whose capital is 50 tiles away, walked up to us with a conscript warrior received from a goody hut next to us and attacked one of our 3 Mercs, while we have two cities? Even if we give up our image and turn Legoland into a military organization, I wouldn't call ourselves a threat for thousands of years. Fortunately the above scenario is not very likely because (to my greatest surprise) there is only one expansionist civ among our opponents (thanks for confirming this info, btw), nonetheless it illustrates why I feel that this issue might be a bit more complicated than it sounds.
quote:
the risk of a rival team attacking us only to trigger our GA is near nil |
Possible, but I doubt that us being a threat plays any role in this, even if it's true.
quote:
We don't have analyses for now. If you want to produce one, I'll be extremely happy to read it |
I'll try, no promises though. Unless many other aspects of the game, I have never thought about this. Actually I did, for 5 minutes, before I posted the question here, and during those 5 minutes I reached the astonishing conclusion that the Golden Age is best when we are in a very early phase because then the boost given by the GA might get close to doubling our performance. In contrast, when everything is mined and railroaded, we are a Republic and spread out enough to suffer from significant corruption, a GA probably gives only a 10-15% boost. Wouldn't be surprised if this turned out to be complete nonesense on a second look, nonetheless this argument should be useful anyway -- in worst case as a basis of desinformation.
Last edited by delmar on 08-12-2002 at 09:12
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30-11-2002 05:14
I almost feel inclined just to sit back and watch and learn. 
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